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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2004, 03:13 AM
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isnt the black coating on new replacement panels epoxy?

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2004, 06:57 AM
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The majority is,
but some of the OEM manufacturers are using
a waterborne primer in a few plants.
I have also been advised that the manufacturers using a waterborne primer are planning on making the switch to waterborne epoxy.

Last edited by BarryK; 11-27-2004 at 07:52 AM.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2004, 09:00 AM
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Barry, you know what they put on the new Chrylser panels, OEM replacements and at the factory?
That primer they put on factory built cars/trucks sands terrible, very hard. I was told it was a powder coat type of coating, thus causing the very hard sanding and feather edge abililty.

I heard this from two different PPG reps. Chrysler seemed to make some sort change in the mid 90's and got really bad around 2000.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2004, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sevt_chevelle
Barry, you know what they put on the new Chrylser panels, OEM replacements and at the factory?
That primer they put on factory built cars/trucks sands terrible, very hard. I was told it was a powder coat type of coating, thus causing the very hard sanding and feather edge abililty.

I heard this from two different PPG reps. Chrysler seemed to make some sort change in the mid 90's and got really bad around 2000.
*********************************************
I have no connections at Chrysler to find out.
I can't see Chrysler powder coating the panels as the cost would be a killer.
Being hard to sand most likely means its a waterborne epoxy.
Could be UV cured epoxy but highly unlikely.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2004, 03:20 AM
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Hoss, sevt_chevelle,

Hoss,

You asked "isn't it epoxy on new panels"

Much earlier in this thread I wrote how to test the black coatings on new panels with paint stripper to know (?) what is on them.

I've never found sanded steel under any black coating, on any new panel/patch panel for a Mustang.

It's always very smooth slick steel.

Epoxy requires a sanded surface for "tooth" to mechanically bond to the steel.

.................................................. .................................................. ..

sevt_ chevelle,

Where did you find the 14 mils thick total coatings of PPG required to be a warrentied finish info?

A fantastic custom/restoration painter friend of mine (curbappealautomotive.com) and I are "debating" the issue.

He says 6-9 is plenty, I say 10-14 makes me sleep better.....

Wow is he an artist, last three bikes he did all won best of show.

Do check out his work , cars and bikes on his web site.

Thanks for the info

Steve

Last edited by red65mustang; 11-28-2004 at 03:20 AM.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2004, 04:16 AM
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Re: Hoss, sevt_chevelle,

I've never found sanded steel under any black coating, on any new panel/patch panel for a Mustang.

It's always very smooth slick steel.

Epoxy requires a sanded surface for "tooth" to mechanically bond to the steel.
QT-REDS 65 MUSTANG.
**********************************************

YOUR TESTS ARE TOTALLY USELESS!

Yes if you shoot epoxy, you must have scratches but not a factory panel as they do a totally different process has been that way since at least 1971 since I have been in this. If your looking for a factory panel with scratches under the primer so you can say its epoxy--you will look a lifetime pal!

This mill stuff, where do you get your info??

Ever thought about spending $400 to buy an electronic mil gage?

Barry

Last edited by BarryK; 11-28-2004 at 05:23 AM.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2004, 07:49 AM
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Barry, you do amaze me

Hoss DID NOT ASK is the coating epoxy on a "OEM" panel?

He did not say WHO made the panel, aftermarket, imported, or OEM.

I specifically referenced throughout this thread imported MUSTANG panels, the stripper test helps tell you "is it good "E-COAT" on the slick steel.

Please do educate me, what OEM's are currently applying EPOXY (not e-coat) on bare slick smooth steel and how do they do it. I really want to know!

Finally, your memory is very short.

Go back in this thread and read the post sevt_chevelle wrote about OEM paint thicknesses and PPG required thickness for a warrentee.

To help you find it, it's the one where he references a (10mils thick) paper business card thickness to visualize the total coatings thickness, a good general guide.

What did sevt_chevelle say PPG allows for max total of all the layers thickness?

Man, I wouldn't even think about trying to explain to you what Nelson, my painter friend and I are "debating" about for good a total coatings thickness goal. I'll give ya a clue though, he must also be a fool, he does read p-sheets.

No I don't own a paint depth micrometer, I use Nelson's

.................................................. .................................................. ..

Footnote to the rest of the world :

Test for epoxy (?) on a new "used" panel from ebay, car show, etc. with Jasco Premium Epoxy and Paint remover.

If the stripper doesn't dry in 15 minutes doesn't "pop" the coating off , takes about 30 (?) minutes to start to dry, (and the steel is sanded) = very probably good epoxy.

Just did this test because of a "aw sh*#" I did.

SOMETHING was on a wipe down towel that I used to wipe down the side of a sanded new MUSTANG imported fender. Left easy to see streaks in the epoxy on that part of the fender . Top of the fender, different towel, perfect. Other fender, different towel, perfect.

Glad I did strip it , did a razor blade-tape lift test on a streaked area, seemed fine. But! Just the light drag of the brush swabbing on the stripper exposed the steel immediately in the streaks!

Test results are based on stripping the epoxy off the top of the fender.

Steve

Last edited by red65mustang; 12-03-2004 at 02:57 AM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2004, 09:02 AM
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Why would you want to know how the OEMS do it?
You already know! Remember?

Last edited by BarryK; 11-28-2004 at 09:32 AM.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2004, 09:45 AM
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RedMustang,
I got my info right from the PPG repair manual, I also have Dupont and Valspar, and with some digging I can get the S-W/Martin Senour manual as well.

Am a level 3 PPG certified painter, would have my Master certs if I didnt move earlier this year from Northern Iowa to Kansas City Kansas.
Am not some backwoods hillybilly spraying paint, I do have a clue to what am doing.

PPG's film build max is 14 mils. After 14 mils of product have been applied to a panel PPG washes their hands of the car.
So if your car has 16 mils of paint on it and it fails, starts to peel off, PPG WONT warrenty that paint because you exceed the 14 mil max film build.

If memory serves me right Dupont's film build max is 12 mils, but things might have changed since 98, when I last took a Dupont class.

Quote:
Originally posted by sevt_chevelle
Most warrentied film thickness is 14 mils, which what PPG suggests as the max thickness for them to warrenty the paint. And you are putting on 150 mils of epoxy!!!!
HOLY F%^*
No where does it say that is what PPG wants for a required film build. It says that after that allowed 14 mils of paint that paint job is no longer warrentied.

Sorry Pal but you are the one getting confused and have problems reading and memory comprenhension.

Last edited by sevt_chevelle; 11-28-2004 at 09:45 AM.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2004, 12:37 PM
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Red 65 mustang.

Its a fact shops that are educated and stay up on products and are not total morons are more efficient and make more money.
Our satisfaction should be just knowing your making work for yourself but will try to explain one time.

Your paint stripper test is total a**in*.
Here is why:

For every positive, there is a negative. (old math)

The hardest part of any formulator being making a clear, primer or epoxy is making it to do what you need for the market your serving.

Can an epoxy be made to withstand paint stripper? Yes would you want to? Depends, making a floor coating for a chemical factory, sure,
they are out there. Make one for a car? No way. Why because now you are going to give up corrosion protection, sand-ability and open coat times. To start you would have to get rid of all the zinc and zinc phosphates and salt and some acids groups.
Want to make the epoxy hard as a rock, sure can but there goes all corrosion protection out the door and open-coat times, IE floor coating epoxy.

Want the best 2K primer in the world? Can do! Would you mind if it took one full day to block the door with 180 grit? Thats what would happen or two hours to DA a 3 inch run out.

Want a clear that flows out smooth so no matter how stupid you are, it will look like the job is dipped when your done? Not a problem, load it up with the ketone groups and you got it. But now you just created a clear that will self destruct in a year because ketone's like to absorb UV's so your UV inhibitors including the HALS group if used would be useless because instead of turning the UV's to heat the UV's would be absorbed.

What I'm trying to point out is the epoxy the performs the worst with paint striper may be your best choice and you don't have a clue.

Well you think you do.

Last edited by BarryK; 11-28-2004 at 01:31 PM.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2004, 01:08 PM
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thanks sevt_chevelle

For telling me where to look for the 14mils MAX allowed PPG info.

Thank you for pointing out the wording error in my question to you. I should have asked for " MAX" allowed thickness as you wrote originally.

If I thought you didn't have a clue of what your doing I wouldn't have asked you a question.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2004, 03:12 PM
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Barry,

You have written,

You don't know what transport primer is on panels.

That 36 grit paper makes a 1.2mil (.0012") deep scratch


Why in the world am I bothering to respond to your last post!

Barry, you say my stripper test is a bunch of crap, that's fine with me, don't use it.

.................................................. .................................................. ....
To the rest of the world, I repeat:

If you are not sure what's on a new panel.....

I don't trust the lacquer thinner rub test alone to tell me that a panel has a good e-coat coating on it.

I coat a small area of the panel with Jasco Premium Epoxy Paint stripper(Lowes, $8qt) to see the how the stripper reacts on the coating.

IE:

coating pops up off the part, stripper goes totally dry in 20(?) minutes, it's not e-coat.

coating doesn't pop off the part and stripper and coating are still very wet and "gooey" after 20 minutes, it is probably good e-coat

you buy a used panel, the guy says it's epoxy coated, if it takes 30 minutes for the stripper to start to go dry, it is very probably epoxy

The results are based on testing with known coatings on the panels.

Last edited by red65mustang; 12-03-2004 at 03:56 AM.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2004, 03:47 PM
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I knew it would be way over your head when I wrote it.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2004, 07:25 PM
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red65mustang.... Let's get this straight. To determine what paint it has on it, you use paint remover? If you are going to strip it anyway, why do you really care what it has on it? If you don't plan on stripping it, you are really asking for trouble by using paint stripper on it. Sure sounds like a bunch of crap to me.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2004, 04:43 AM
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Wrong again Barry

It's not over my head.

My background is 30 years of plastics (and coatings) mfg new products design and field testing.

You have constantly written wrong information and I won't waste my time replying to that post.

I do apologize for my remark about your reading comprehesion.

You "gotta play with the cards (capabilities) God gave ya", everybody's got some really good cards, some not so good.

.................................................. .................................................. .....

Adkart, I wrote "TEST A SMALL AREA" on the panel again and again.

If it's NOT e-coat, STRIP/sand THE PANEL and epoxy it.

If it is good e-coat, leave it on the panel, sand the stripped small area , scuff the rest, shot the panel with epoxy.

About making a mess with the stripper, you could be right.

Some people DON'T read-follow instructions. How about this:

WARNING! DO NOT do this test if you don't how to use (Jasco) paint stripper.

Last edited by red65mustang; 12-03-2004 at 02:28 AM.
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