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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2004, 03:54 PM
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I feel so bad for your customers!
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2004, 09:07 PM
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Something to think about with the test.

Quote:
Originally posted by red65mustang

To the rest of the world, I repeat:

If you are not sure what's on a new panel.....

I don't trust the lacquer thinner rub test alone to tell me that a panel has a good e-coat coating on it.

I coat a small area of the panel with Jasco Premium Epoxy Paint stripper(Lowes, $8qt) to see the how the stripper reacts on the coating.

IE:

coating pops up off the part, stripper goes totally dry in 20(?) minutes, it's not e-coat.

coating doesn't pop off the part and stripper and coating are still very wet and "gooey" after 20 minutes, it is probably good e-coat

you buy a used panel, the guy says it's epoxy coated, if it takes 30 minutes for the stripper to start to go dry, it is very probably epoxy

The results are based on testing with known coatings on the panels.
Steve, your test does not tell you what kind of primer is on it, it only reveals the integrity of the primer. An epoxy, urethane or what ever is going to fail if it was not mixed and applied properly just as a lacquer would. Of course that is a moot point if it fails, it has to be removed anyway. But, you get my point.

Because of that you need to do many of these tests with many different product brands. For instance you could say that XXX brand of epoxy reacted a certain way, but you can't say "epoxys" act a certain way.

On the film thickness, for a number of years I was the guy who dished out the bucks for a failure as you guys are talking about. I Can't remember if there is an actual number that S-W used as a cut off point. I responded to claims with common sense and there is no blanket mil thickness that will make a film fail. There are however conditions the film could be applied that would make it fail. The conditions being the same, 5 mils or 14 mils it will usually fail or not based on these conditons. Of course the more mils, the more the bungle will magnify. As I remember it was 12-14 mils. All I know is, I saw a lot of failures when you start building up that mil thickness.

As far as what a guy does custom painting, that means nothing. For a number of reasons like the paint doesn't see the use a "normal" job would to the fact that it probably doesn't even see the light of day for a more than a fraction of time compared to a "normal" car. You can get away with murder when the car isn't outside or being "abused" like your average car.

A "goal"? how about 8 to 10 tops. Most factory paint jobs on high end cars will have as little as five.

Last edited by MARTINSR; 11-29-2004 at 09:19 PM.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2004, 06:37 AM
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[color=red][size=3]Gentlemen,

Let this serve as a warning that personal attacks will not be tolerated. Having a disagreement is one thing, but treat each other with respect. There will be no comments about someone's IQ, parentage, or ability to comprehend. In the past page this thread has degenerated quite a bit and if it doesn't stop I'll start editing posts. If that doesn't work I lock the post permanently.

Make your point and if you can't agree, simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.

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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2004, 10:01 AM
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Centerline,

Really for all the disagreements here I thought this was going pretty polite and smooth.
If I have been the offender at all do point out so I don't do it again. ( a public beating is fine with me)
There have been some pretty good facts in this link given and now that Martin is going to clear up the mil problem this could be a good link!
Barry
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2004, 12:31 PM
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I'm not singling out any one person. I received a complaint about this thread and when I read through it I noticed that it was degenerating a bit. Just wanted to put everyone on notice that disagreements are fine but we expect everyone to respect each other and refrain from name calling etc. Don't take anything personal, my comments were for everyone.

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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2004, 08:40 AM
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reply to martinsr, thank you

To everyone, Martinsr made a very valid point in the second paragraph:
I did not specify "to test for PPG DPLF epoxy on a used panel(which I did)" it takes about 30 minutes for the stripper to start to dry".
Other brands of epoxy's may dry slower-quicker, I don't know.
You will know it's not transport primer.

To Martinsr,

Preface: Understand that I suggested my test for "hot rodders", who are buying aftermarket (imported?) panels as a simple at home test to give you a clue of what the black coating is/is not and a clue as to was it applied correctly.
If you really want to know what the black coating is and how it was applied get the information in writing from the panel manufacturer.

In your first paragraph, I would add:

What ever the black coating is on a panel, know that it was applied to a very smooth slick steel surface by the mfgr.

(I like your use of "testing for integrity") I would add : your testing for the integrity of the bond of the coating to the slick steel.

I'll leave it to you to explain how the e-coat and e-coat application method can bond the coating to the slick steel for the best possible moisture/oxygen barrier possible almost at a molecule to molecule level. I do know who you are, I'm tired of writing.

Briefly, about your 3rd paragraph, total coatings thickness, I asked svt_ chevelle where did he find the up to 14 mils allowed? That's more than I'd ever read.

Aside to your 3rd paragraph, what Nelson and I were "debating' regarding total coats thickness is what a robot can do (absolutely uniform, 5mils thick on a high end car) and what a human can do (on a hot rod) . Back in the 80's, I worked with the GM robotics research lab developing the PID loop controls for the painting robots. So of course I'm debating for the high side, (you need a robot for 5mils over the whole car).

Fourth paragraph: I did NOT say Nelson ONLY does custom work. His shop does 1/3 insurance, 1/3 classics and 1/3 custom show paint.

Your last paragraph I would have written: If you are having your car painted or doing it yourself, the total coatings thickness goal should be very close to the thickness of a paper business card (10mils) (as svt_chevelle wrote) or very close to 3 layers of 3mil polyethylene. And to try to get a "feel" for what each coat should be (IE:1 mil of clear = 1 layer of a kitchen trash can ) a kitchen trash can liner is .00095" (95% of one mil) but do read the box to be sure it's .95mil.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2004, 12:56 AM
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Talking

its epoxy
there are differeent kinds of epoxies
and metal does not have to be sanded for epoxies to stick to
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2004, 05:26 AM
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Hoss,

OEM bodies are definitely electrodeposition (e-coated) epoxy dipped.

OEM panels are very probably electrodepostion epoxy coated but may have an acrylic or (?) new hybrid coating.

An e-coat production line, anodic or cathodic costs millions . OEM's have the volume to justify the cost and do charge for the e-coat process in the price of the panel.

Imported panel, no real volume, cheap price ($59 quarter skin). How can they make a panel look correct and make a profit.

Transport primer looks alot like e-coat.

They can spray (or just dip) a slick steel panel with epoxy. That really looks like it was e-coated. (look for runs, thick spots etc.).
I retrack my looking for sanding scratches statement, to confusing,
you definitely can electrodeposition (e-coat) epoxy on slick steel, you shouldn't spray epoxy on slick steel, if they did sand and spray epoxy, great, almost as good as the e-coat process.

Do it right, (Goodmark? I don't know), send the slick steel panel to a contract e-coating service company and charge for it in the price of the panel.. Do what American Designers does on their inexpensive panels, NO coating.

Last edited by red65mustang; 12-03-2004 at 05:39 AM.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2004, 05:54 AM
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Re: Hoss,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by red65mustang
may have an acrylic or (?) new hybrid coating.
******************************************
Wrong! Same stuff we use everyday only difference is activator is set up not to kick until 400-450 degrees, so product does not harden in tank.
BWK

An e-coat production line, anodic or cathodic costs millions . OEM's have the volume to justify the cost and do charge for the e-coat process in the price of the panel.
*********************************************
True/
Bwk

Imported panel, no real volume, cheap price ($59 quarter skin). How can they make a panel look correct and make a profit.
***********************************************
Wrong, I have been to many of these plants in china and Taiwan.
This is very high volume, USA is not only user.
There dip process is normally a 2 tank or 3 tank dip process not as automated but easily set up for $25,000-$50,000 over there.
A lot of this equipment they used is purchased from the big OEM'S
that the OEM's sold as they updated to more automation. Remember labor is very cheap there and cheaper than buying automation for processes like this one.
BWK


Transport primer looks alot like e-coat.
***********************************************
Still have not figured out who make this so called transport primer and where its used???
bWK

I retrack my looking for sanding scratches statement, to confusing,
*********************************************
But why? Give up now? You made such a big deal out of how stupid I was. I would stick to your story!

Last edited by BarryK; 12-03-2004 at 06:04 AM.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2004, 11:34 AM
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Barry,

The OEM's are using acrylic e-coat on some panels for better impact resistance than epoxy. It's less corrosion protection but better for stones and gravel chip protection.

The "hybrid" e-coats are pretty rare, it's a compatibility issue with standard top coats.

Not all panels get the same epoxy coating.

.................................................. .................................................. ....

You agreed an e-coat line costs millions of dollars.

Far East mfgr's buy (used) equipment for $25,000-$50,000.

They are doing huge volumes of many different parts for many different cars right? Each different part requires a different controls set up right? So they have many many e-coat lines for all these different parts right?

Otherwise, to me, that's garbage in garbage out for quality.

You say ALL the far east mfgr's are using electro-deposition dip coating, how do you explain the bare steel I found all along an epoxied fender panel edge when I separated the panel from the support frame.

My guess is the slick steel fender was sprayed with epoxy, the hidden edge didn't get coated.

Wouldn't it have been better if they had at least sanded the fender panel face before spraying the epoxy?

.................................................. .................................................. ....

Footnote to the rest of the world:
Why the change to acrylic, why do they care? A big share of new car sales are leases. Turn in a leased car and pay the penalty for lots of paint chips. You "may" want to lease something else next time.
Your refrigerator at home has a coat of acrylic e-coat on it, very good chip (impact) resistance and lasts (?) 10+ years before it rusts thru, longer than any lease I know of.

An e-coating line that can correctly coat any part from any car costs mega bucks new or used. Ask the PPG lab, they have one.

OEM panel = good e-coat
Imported panel= "maybe" good e-coat
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2004, 11:57 AM
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Re: Barry,

Quote:
Originally posted by red65mustang
The OEM's are using acrylic e-coat on some panels for better impact resistance than epoxy. It's less corrosion protection but better for stones and gravel chip protection.
***********************************************
Not Automotive-ecoat is epoxy. Epoxy as an undercoat has far Superior chip Resistance. (you confused acrylic paint)
BWK

What manufactures is using any acrylic as a primer, tell me and I can verify for you within a day!
BWK

The "hybrid" e-coats are pretty rare, it's a compatibility issue with standard top coats.
*******************************************
Oh Please!
BWK

Not all panels get the same epoxy coating.
*************************************************
Whats a hybrid epoxy? All manufacturers will use the same coating for all panels made it that plant.
See playing around on the INTERNET did not explain how hard it would be to change products even on a monthly basis.
The only difference overseas is heat to cure such as 250 degrees or higher and some want zinc , some don't.
BWK

.................................................. .................................................. ....

You agreed an e-coat line costs millions of dollars.

Far East mfgr's buy (used) equipment for $25,000-$50,000.
They are doing huge volumes of many different parts for many different cars right? Each different part requires a different controls set up right?
*******************************************
WRONG!
BWK

So they have many many e-coat lines for all these different parts right?
*********************************************
WRONG!
BWK

*********************************************

Otherwise, to me, that's garbage in garbage out for quality.

You say ALL the far east mfgr's are using electro-deposition dip coating, how do you explain the bare steel I found all along an epoxied fender panel edge when I separated the panel from the support frame.

My guess is the slick steel fender was sprayed with epoxy, the hidden edge didn't get coated.
*******************************************

All companies have automated label machines and how do you explain the can that does not get the label?
BWK


Wouldn't it have been better if they had at least sanded the fender panel face before spraying the epoxy?
**********************************************
NOPE!
The dipping process is FAR better for adhesion than you can ever do by hand! NO body shop could ever duplicate the cleanness of metal or adhesion, like a dipping process. (look up etching)
BWK

.................................................. .................................................. ....
OEM panel = good e-coat
Imported panel= "maybe" good e-coat
*******************************************

I ship 10,000-30,000 gallons per month of epoxy to your foreign fender makers, the biggest seller in the market over there is ICI the second is S&W.
Some of the plants because of the chemicals they use (no VOC'S laws) have better adhesion than The OEMS AND SOME DON'T.
BWK
**********************************************
I'm done with this as your making stuff up as you go along to save face, Get your last say and enjoy it!
BARRY

Last edited by BarryK; 12-03-2004 at 12:19 PM.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2004, 12:34 PM
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E-coat lines cost millions of dollars because of the automation and support equipment they require.

E-coat, like any other process coating, is only as good as its surface prep. The difference being the surface prep for e-coat is done with chemicals applied at certain pressures and temperatures over a certain time rather than sandpaper.

E-coat is a water base coating made up from either DI (DeIonized) or RO (Reverse Osmosis) water. You don't want any cations or anions in the water, only pure water. The only other component is a resin and/or a paste.

Once e-coat resin and/or paste is mixed with DI or RO water it must be constantly circulated to keep the particulate in suspension. If you lose power to an e-coat system and do not have a back-up generator you will have anywhere from 4-12 hours to GET one. Or, you just lost your paint bath and ultra filter cartridges. Leave it long enough and your bag filters, heat exchangers, and piping are screwed as well.

E-coat paint sells for anywhere from $10 to $40 per gallon.

Some of the biggest e-coat tanks in the world are in the 90,000 to 110,000 gallon range.

Coating thickness is controlled by time at voltage.

E-coated surfaces are actually rinsed several times with permeate (a by-product of e-coat paint made by filtering e-coat paint through ultra filters) and then with a final rinse of DI or RO water before they are cured. Once the coating has been applied it won't come off easily, even prior to curing.

E-coat is cured at 350 to 450 degrees F for anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes. You have to dehydrate the parts in a dehydration zone at a temperate and time that doesn't allow the water in the e-coat to pop or boil out before you go into the hotter zone. If this happens it will look like a popped blister in the surface of the finish.

E-coat paint needs to be maintained around 90 degrees F max or less. This has gone up in recent years due to improved formulations. 5 years ago it was more like 80 degrees F max. The cooler you keep it, like around 70 degrees F, the better it flows into areas that are hard to reach with the voltage, like the center of a mass of metal.

The closer the surfaces of what you are coating are to the anodes, the thicker the coating will be. Were talking hundredths of a mil.

You have to put a chiller system on an e-coat tank and pump cold water through a heat exchanger, with the e-coat paint on the other side, due to the heat generated by the e-coat circulation pump impellers creating shear on the paint when circulated.

E-coat tanks have to have two pumps. One to pump e-coat through one side of the heat exchanger and the other to pump it through the ultra filters.

You must have an anolyte system to remove acid from the anodes. Anodes are stainless steel rods submerged in the bath to provide a positive or negative charge to the paint.

Depending on if you provide a positive or negative charge to the paint and the opposite to the part, you have either a cathodic or anodic e-coat system.

I've left out several other things that are required for an e-coat system but I think you get the idea of why they are so expensive. If you want to know something else about e-coat let me know. The company I work for invented many of the features you see on e-coat systems today. We hold over 40 e-coat patents and have built hundereds of e-coat systems, many for the big three.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2004, 12:42 PM
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Thank you.
I tried to keep simple but not being successful.
You may be answering questions all your life now!

Of course over seas a lot of the smaller plants are a lot cruder
system than you explained.
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Old 12-03-2004, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BarryK
Of course over seas a lot of the smaller plants are a lot cruder
system than you explained.
Absolutely...Overseas is a different game. They don't have to deal with the EPA, OSHA, Unions, Tree huggers, PITA, or any other group that adds cost to the american made product. They buy used equipment and actually do a pretty good job of making it work well with little support.
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Old 12-03-2004, 12:53 PM
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Support.
This has gotten so big overseas, that the smaller ones with the dip systems are really getting a lot of support, as everyone is fighting for the small business.
Your company would have the big players locked up with your system.
On price i get in area of $40-$45 per
gallon over their and try to keep in line with ICI.
Here again a little different than what your doing.

Edit.
I was thinking, with your system you would get sick to your stomach
if you saw some of the smaller systems overseas!
Some of the most creative is how some dry the metal after dipping
before epoxy is applied.
There are still a couple of place actually spraying the epoxy I know of one and the ICI guy said he has a 1/2 dozen in assembly line fashion.
Barry

Last edited by BarryK; 12-03-2004 at 02:19 PM.
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