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-   -   Epoxy over lead filler (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/epoxy-over-lead-filler-52812.html)

kev987 11-26-2004 08:36 PM

Epoxy over lead filler
 
I am stripping a car to the bare metal and priming with epoxy primer (DPLF to be exact). The car has the original lead seam sealer and I have not noticed any mention in the spec sheets of the epoxy working or not working when applied over lead. Do I need to take any special precautions to apply the epoxy over the lead or just treat it like steel? Thanks in advance for any info.

Kevin

AngliaBob 11-27-2004 01:21 AM

kev987,

I have treated any leaded areas the same as any steel panel.
Don't give it any special status, it's just an other part of the car.

AngliaBob

BarryK 11-27-2004 09:55 AM

Lead is a major problem with restorers. Some restorers because of past problems grind the lead out and replace with glass.
I hate that!

The reason they had problems in past is because of the following applications:
Treating with ANY acid.
Using acid etch primer.
Using lacquer primer.
Using 2K primer.
Using DTM primer.
None of the above will last long term.

1)DA the the lead with 80 grit, just to smooth.

2) wash with waterborne or solvent type wax and grease remover. Let set at least one hour before applying your epoxy.

3) Apply one coat of epoxy and let set 30 minutes before the second coat is applied. Do Not puddle or try to fill with the epoxy.

MARTINSR 11-27-2004 10:05 AM

I think a good thing is to cut the lead a little low before the epoxy is applied. The reason for this is many times the lead is high, for some reason the factory paddled it out and then kinda left a "patch" and didn't cut it down nice and flat. So if you epoxy over that, and you plan on making the car real nice, you will have to cut the lead and end up with the same bare lead.

So, if you check it and cut it down with 120 grit if needed. Then after epoxy you can level it out nice with a skim coat of polyester if need be.

BarryK 11-27-2004 10:18 AM

120 cut down, I would be worried about some epoxies sticking to that grit.
A few manufacturers are changing to 80 or all bets are off.

sevt_chevelle 11-27-2004 01:31 PM

Barry, Ive read in some of your past posts that paint companies are NOW wanting 80 grit for epoxy and 2K urethane primers.
What companies are doing this switch??

In the past the grit range has been around 150 to 240.

Ive been a big PPG fan for many years but now work at a shop using Dupont products. I do metal work but have to prime the work myself then send off to paint. We use 4609 or 4906, I believe.
I finish off the filler with 180 and feather edge the surrounding paint with 320

BarryK 11-27-2004 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sevt_chevelle
Barry, Ive read in some of your past posts that paint companies are NOW wanting 80 grit for epoxy and 2K urethane primers.
What companies are doing this switch??

In the past the grit range has been around 150 to 240.

Ive been a big PPG fan for many years but now work at a shop using Dupont products. I do metal work but have to prime the work myself then send off to paint. We use 4609 or 4906, I believe.
I finish off the filler with 180 and feather edge the surrounding paint with 320

*************************************************
Body filler or 2K primers its not an issue.
I have changed my literature and I do know ***** is going to and one of the **** guys at the Radtec meeting said they were.
Reason is a letter was sent out by one of the epoxy resin company's about two months ago acknowledging some problems.
In short (I don't have letter here) i will try and sum up.

Metal coatings are changing such as high strength and different types of coating for rust protection from the OEM. What is happening is let say you sand with 180 the epoxy may not get into the finer scratches and adhesion is lost and corrosion protection is limited because of air trap-page that will lead to delamination.
Compounding this problem is the voc laws. The high solids resins add to the problem even more so than the finer scratches.
Also noted in the letter, it has been assumed in the past epoxy adhesion was 45-50% charge +/- as all items have a charge except things like TPO, TEO etc. Now they feel the charge rate is in the 35-45 % range.
Another problem (this is my opinion) is the so many different types of sand paper being used. The cheaper ones break down faster and if not changed enough the metal almost looks buffed with scratches.
There is no reason not to use 80, in past its been said on here that 80 is to rough but I have never (IN BARE METAL) seen an 80 scratch that was not covered with one coat of epoxy. Now in body filler or primer thats a different subject all together.

edit:
I deleted the names of the other company's as, really not my place to say, but you will see over next year different procedures being recommended.
What your using-go to 80!

kev987 11-27-2004 08:06 PM

Thanks for the info guys! It sounds like a good sanding with 80, clean it up, and spray it. I can handle that.

Kevin

firebird_red 12-01-2004 01:16 AM

epoxy over lead, what about bronze?
 
Is there any problem with future corrosion (mayb from dissimilar metals) or adhesion if any rust pinholes are brazed closed, sanded and painted with DP40 epoxy primer? Is there an accepted solvent for removing the flux, or does that have to be removed by chipping and sanding?

BarryK 12-01-2004 02:28 PM

I have never seen any type of a reaction and this is used a lot for pinholes, in glass channel's.

There is no solvent that will remove the flux, sanding and some use wire wheels to clean up.

rodgrdodger 04-13-2013 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryK (Post 374147)
*************************************************
Body filler or 2K primers its not an issue.
I have changed my literature and I do know ***** is going to and one of the **** guys at the Radtec meeting said they were.
Reason is a letter was sent out by one of the epoxy resin company's about two months ago acknowledging some problems.
In short (I don't have letter here) i will try and sum up.

Metal coatings are changing such as high strength and different types of coating for rust protection from the OEM. What is happening is let say you sand with 180 the epoxy may not get into the finer scratches and adhesion is lost and corrosion protection is limited because of air trap-page that will lead to delamination.
Compounding this problem is the voc laws. The high solids resins add to the problem even more so than the finer scratches.
Also noted in the letter, it has been assumed in the past epoxy adhesion was 45-50% charge +/- as all items have a charge except things like TPO, TEO etc. Now they feel the charge rate is in the 35-45 % range.
Another problem (this is my opinion) is the so many different types of sand paper being used. The cheaper ones break down faster and if not changed enough the metal almost looks buffed with scratches.
There is no reason not to use 80, in past its been said on here that 80 is to rough but I have never (IN BARE METAL) seen an 80 scratch that was not covered with one coat of epoxy. Now in body filler or primer thats a different subject all together.

edit:
I deleted the names of the other company's as, really not my place to say, but you will see over next year different procedures being recommended.
What your using-go to 80!

I suppose you could thin out the epoxy slightly if you're worried about penetration but it should be ok using standard amount of reducer. I have had great result's with fusion just following the maker's instructions.

tech69 04-17-2013 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARTINSR (Post 374062)
I think a good thing is to cut the lead a little low before the epoxy is applied. The reason for this is many times the lead is high, for some reason the factory paddled it out and then kinda left a "patch" and didn't cut it down nice and flat. So if you epoxy over that, and you plan on making the car real nice, you will have to cut the lead and end up with the same bare lead.

So, if you check it and cut it down with 120 grit if needed. Then after epoxy you can level it out nice with a skim coat of polyester if need be.

wasn't it a month ago when you were on the same boat as I was on whether or not to use filler over lead or epoxy first and wasn't it Barry who helped us out on that? Good thing you've been working on handling lead since then cause that process sounds great ...even though I haven't had time within the past month to try it as you had.:welcome:

MARTINSR 04-17-2013 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tech69 (Post 1667579)
wasn't it a month ago when you were on the same boat as I was on whether or not to use filler over lead or epoxy first and wasn't it Barry who helped us out on that? Good thing you've been working on handling lead since then cause that process sounds great ...even though I haven't had time within the past month to try it as you had.:welcome:

You are making a fool of yourself Henry, back off before you have a heart attack.

Brian

69 widetrack 04-17-2013 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARTINSR (Post 374062)
I think a good thing is to cut the lead a little low before the epoxy is applied. The reason for this is many times the lead is high, for some reason the factory paddled it out and then kinda left a "patch" and didn't cut it down nice and flat. So if you epoxy over that, and you plan on making the car real nice, you will have to cut the lead and end up with the same bare lead.

So, if you check it and cut it down with 120 grit if needed. Then after epoxy you can level it out nice with a skim coat of polyester if need be.

I know what you mean Brian about the lead being to high on some factory seams, remember the thread about what kind of cars you have and I mentioned that I had a 72 Demon with the rear quarters being replaced and how whoever had done the replacement of the factory quarters didn't do a very good job because the paint was starting to blister. Ever since then it's been bothering me and I felt that even if I'm not going to do the repair right now, I should at least dig into it and stop whatever rust that was forming underneath the paint now so that when I took the time to repair it properly, I wouldn't have a bigger job than it needed to be.

As it turned out, I cut the paint down and it wasn't due to a bad repair job on the rear quarters (well the repair job was still bad but that wasn't the reason for the blistering on the sail panel). I'm thinking this car spent a lot of time on the track because the factory join at the C pillar to the roof was starting to let go (flex in the body from launching) and moisture was getting into the crack from water running down the chrome trim from the rear windshield. What I thought was all blistering, there was blistering but even after the paint was removed I held a straight edge up to the panel and found an excess of factory lead on the seam. This was the same on both sides...to much lead. I've got the driver's side cleaned up now but I'm not sure yet how I'm going to repair the quarters.

The guy that replaced the rear quarters did use the full factory quarter because he used the trunk gutter but cut the quarter about an inch from the door jamb and about 4 inches below the factory seem on the C pillar...why I don't know, why do I think it was used on the track? Because the inner wheel wells look as though they where trimmed to allow for a bigger rear tire and after I dug all of the gravel guard off of the inner tub where it mates up to the quarter, I found replacement metal to make the inner wheel well. I knew I had a bit of work ahead of me to make a nicer car but, this is one of those deals where paint can cover up a multitude of sins...not just the poor quarter installation but I'm sure in 72 the seam wouldn't have looked as bad as it does today and I know I'm going to need to remove lead to make a nice seam on the C pillar.

Ray

BarryK 04-17-2013 06:07 PM

Update on the original poster:

In 2005 a year after he posted this question, the car was finished and sold.
Two years later in 2007 he retired after a long career as head engineer of GE’s missile development program.

He took up snow skiing and traveled the world skiing every mountain he could for six years.
Never been to Los Angles before, so he took his skis and went looking for a hill to ski, created a mudslide and ended up in the road, sad to say he was hit by a Prius and was trapped underneath because he was wet, he was electrocuted and passed.
May he rest in peace.


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