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Old 11-06-2006, 10:48 AM
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Epoxy Primer a a Filler?

Fellas,

I was over at our Company Body Shop on Friday afternoon, talking to the Body Shop Manager, and he was showing me this '69 SS396 Chevelle he is doing for one of the Line Tech's-it is beautiful.

Anyway, we were talking about Epoxy Primer (as I was going to Epoxy my '35 this weekend-I did, and it looks great, by the way)-we were discussing Bondo and Filler Primers and he told me that they will use Epoxy Primer as a Filler of sorts (on Restorations), to build and Block-I asked why, and he said it dries as hard as a "Hockey Puck".

Am I behind the eight ball here, or is this new (to me) information? Anybody else doing this?

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Old 11-06-2006, 11:59 AM
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Yes.

It bonds to properly prepped bare steel REALLY good!

You can apply filler over top of it (this practice is reccomended over applying on bare steel) without having to scuff the epoxy's surface.

2K over top to block out and smooth before paint.
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Old 11-06-2006, 12:05 PM
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TexasSpeed,

Thanks for the reply, however I meant that he was telling me that they were using it after using Epoxy on the bare Metal, and Bondo-they were using it instead of Build Primer-
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Old 11-06-2006, 12:05 PM
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It's getting more popular nowdays as epoxy is becoming more user friendly.
Shine has used basically ONLY epoxy on the Vette and he can give you more about that,and I myself have been using it more and more.
Especally SPI as it sands SO easy and sprays out slick.
I would not want to compair it to or build like a poly primer such as Feather Fill and Barry has some concerns on excessive build with epoxy I believe.
Blocking IT first has seemed to cut the amount of 2K courses to get the surface flat and I would rather have epoxy than a lot of 2K primer for strength.
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Old 11-06-2006, 12:54 PM
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I am basically doing the same thing right now, trying to block the epoxy
to level and rid the scratches on a car I'm stripping.
It does work and surely is better than a lot of 2k.
But, I was told not to spray more than a couple of coats of epoxy without letting it cure first.
So for a lot of build I spray 3 coats (I push it a little) and let it dry,
block then repeat. This works if you have a fairly good surface to begin
with, good bodywork and shallow scratches.
So time is the issue, it takes longer.
Also the epoxy sands better if you wait at least 24 hrs, I've been
letting it cure 48 before blocking.
Using the 2k is easier but the epoxy is more durable, I wouldn't do it
on my collision work, but my own, yes.
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Old 11-06-2006, 01:52 PM
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Texa speed, can you show me technical documentation that shows you can put plastic filler over unsanded epoxy primer?

So far all I have found indicates plastic filler products do not chemically bond to paints if applied in the recoat window. So far I have only found technical references indicating plastic filler only works by mechancial adhesion which is sanding scratch.

I have other references from people that have found the plastic filler will nicely peel off of unsanded epoxy primer.
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Old 11-06-2006, 02:20 PM
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Sure thing.
http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com...y%20Primer.htm

I also think there's nothing wrong with scratching it up with a little 40 grit for gription insurance.....I do that sometimes.
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Old 11-06-2006, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35WINDOW
Fellas,

I was over at our Company Body Shop on Friday afternoon, talking to the Body Shop Manager, and he was showing me this '69 SS396 Chevelle he is doing for one of the Line Tech's-it is beautiful.

Anyway, we were talking about Epoxy Primer (as I was going to Epoxy my '35 this weekend-I did, and it looks great, by the way)-we were discussing Bondo and Filler Primers and he told me that they will use Epoxy Primer as a Filler of sorts (on Restorations), to build and Block-I asked why, and he said it dries as hard as a "Hockey Puck".

Am I behind the eight ball here, or is this new (to me) information? Anybody else doing this?
================================================== ===

Your really not behind the eight ball here at all.
This is getting popular with the old vette restorers but a few words of caution.
Its a lot of work and its very important that shop temp is stable in winter time such as a solid 70-75 degrees.
Next item is proper flash times between coats is of most importance.
Usually over the bare glass a wet coat is shot at 8 and a second coat at 12 and third coat at 5. The car sets a few days and then the first blocking with 180 begins.
Re-primering the same flash times apply.

Epoxy does not breath like 2K primers or paints so flash times will make or break the job as well as a cold shop temp.
Also not all epoxies are created equal so chose wisely from one you know will work for this kind of application.

I would never recommend this procedure to a new painter.

I was hoping to have a tech sheet on this procedure written up long ago but hopefully will get one done over Xmas.
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Old 11-06-2006, 04:04 PM
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Barry,

I gotta ask-why not a new Painter (that's me!)-are you more concerned with Metal Temp of Ambient Temp (or both?).
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Old 11-06-2006, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35WINDOW
Barry,

I gotta ask-why not a new Painter (that's me!)-are you more concerned with Metal Temp of Ambient Temp (or both?).
----------------------------------------------------------------

This should get me slaughtered!

My concern is a person learning to paint may not be set up to keep heat on all the time or may not take it seriously.

Another concern is a lot of times new painters who have NOT experienced the problems of not activating too the exact ratio will sometimes be a little careless with ratios and flash times.

Another concern is the epoxy is a lot harder to sand then a 2K primer or just hard enough to make blocking a little more difficult and perhaps one of the biggest mistakes a new guy will make is not block enough material off his body filler or his primer before moving on.

With that said, pay no attention to me as someone just posted on another forum his first time painting laid the HS clear orange peel free and no runs when I had stated only 1 in 9 professional painters could spray that clear perfect and not have a mess.
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Old 11-06-2006, 05:46 PM
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Texasspeed.... That information was provided to Lost before. Evidently he didn't read it then, so probably won't read it now.

Aaron
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:13 PM
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the epoxy only prep is by far better than 2k. i have done the entire job on the 57 vette with spi epoxy only. it will out perform any 2k out there. as barry has stated you cant get lazy with epoxy. you gotta follow the rules. i applied 3 coats with each coat drying overnight. i hit it with 80 on the da to knock down some highs each morning. the second go round i dropped the 80 and blocked with 180 wet. let it set several days and reshot it and blocked with 220 wet followed by 320 wet. it's a lot more dry time but it will be a better job. after it cures the spi sands just fine.
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Old 11-06-2006, 09:18 PM
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Epoxy works just fine as a surfacer if enough cure time is given. A person that rushes the application and cure time will end up with shrinkage problems guranteed. Epoxy is slow and doesn't sand as easy as a urethane or polyester primer surfacer, but it offers far greater durability, flexability, and solvent resistance. The interior surfaces like dashes, jambs, underhoods, firewalls, etc... on my restoration work usually is done with only epoxy as the surfacer and it works fine. Some epoxies offer more build than others and also sand better than others. Barry, it's time to bring out that new high build epoxy.

Lost in NJ, there's lots of technical data recomending polyester fillers over epoxy primers-look at the primer tech sheets! Check with BMW and Toyota. If filler peels off of unsanded epoxy primer then the user has definately done something wrong! Attention must be paid to temperature, application, cure time, and recoat window.
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Old 11-07-2006, 07:15 AM
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Thanks for the info guys! I guess I'll take my time and try and Epoxy everything, I do want to do as good of job as a "new Painter" (sorry Barry!) can do!
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Old 11-07-2006, 08:08 AM
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I gotta add my $.02 worth. I started out by using Nason epoxy, and it appears to be a good product - but it is absolutely NOT a sandable epoxy - 220 just skids across the surface. After reading how good the SPI product is on this forum then talking to Barry, I decided to give his stuff a try. Wow - what a difference. I've done an initial block on several pieces on my Brookville body and am impressed on how it fills as well as how well it sands. Unfortunately, I've found out that this particular body has so many hills and valleys, I'm going to have to use filler and 2K. It is next to impossible to metal finish better as most everthing has an interior panel or support blocking the way. If it were a real straight car, I would absolutely not hesitate in using the epoxy with no 2K middle coat such as Shine is doing with his 'Vette.

Dave
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