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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-28-2005, 07:46 PM
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Overspray are you calling waiting 60 minutes a wet coat?? Also there is not any solvent used for spi epoxy, it is epoxy and activator 1 to 1 mix and that is it.. You can reduce it if you wish to make it a "sealer"

FYI I have applied filler over epoxy in this fashion without issue, I have also done work and then covered with epoxy without issue, I have sprayed 2 wet coats waited overnight and then worked with the epoxy... again no issue's...

Although I have never worked for a paint company, I have had the pleasure of knowing a chemist in this field too

He agree's with the methods I have spoken of

Matthew

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Old 07-28-2005, 08:15 PM
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Matthew, I'll give it a try. I'm glad to hear you have good results. The MSDS for the epoxy lists 2 solvents in the primer and 3 solvents in the activator. Xylene and Toluene are slow evaporating, MEK and Proponal are fast evaporating. According to the tech sheet it is similar to a product I used to use with great results.

overspray
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Old 07-28-2005, 08:41 PM
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Cool never looked at the MSDS sheets before now.. I see the chemicals..

Give it a try and I am sure you will love it... I have yet to send one person to spi who was not completely satisfied..

Matthew
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Old 07-28-2005, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BondoKing
Cool never looked at the MSDS sheets before now.. I see the chemicals
Matthew
WHAT, you never look at the MSDS sheets .

Me neither

Vince
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Old 07-29-2005, 08:17 AM
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Thanks to everyone who has responded to my question. Your help is very much appreciated in my attempt to understand how to complete this project successfully. They say there are no secrets, just things you have yet to learn. I still have a ways to go…

Regarding the primer I have; Western RA1000 Etching Filler. I called it a urethane primer. I don’t know that to be a fact. The spec sheet does not say what type of paint it is. Some posts have said there is no such thing. How do I know if this is a urethane or not? There are chemical components listed on the can. What do I look for to tell if it is a urethane?

I have already converted (phosphated) the bare metal, that is to say I have prepped the bare metal with a metal conditioner/treatment (Eastwood’s Oxisolv) and then cleaned (Eastwood’s PRE) the surface. This has been said to be a recommended procedure prior to applying an epoxy primer. Even though it may not be necessary, I am assuming that this treatment will not cause any problems with the etching primer I am using. Does anyone disagree?

Overspray, you have said, “If you have already converted <snip> then an epoxy primer would be a good choice” and “Now days I mostly deal with rusty old bodies and I prefer the etching primers on a lot of that type of work.”. I am getting the sense that either using epoxy or etch primer on this project is correct and that I am not making a mistake going either way.

Thanks again everyone for all the information!!
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Old 07-29-2005, 04:57 PM
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Overspray, great post(s). Welcome to the board
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Old 08-01-2005, 12:18 PM
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I too heard the same thing as UKLuge66 from the paint store.

My scenario is that I just got a complete body acid-dipped. I want to seal the metal from further corrosion as the body will be sitting in my backyard under a canopy while I work on the frame and suspension. I am holding off on doing the body work (removing dents, welding in patch panels, etc.) until I finish with the chassis.

I was told by friends that an epoxy primer would be the best for rust prevention while it is outside and not garaged. But the guy at the paint store told me that since I will be doing body work AFTER applying the epoxy primer, I should not go with epoxy because I would have to completely strip it off and reapply it if I wanted to spray real paint on a year or so later. He also said you can't do patch work with epoxy primer (i.e. sand down a dented section to bare metal, repair dent, then respray epoxy on that bare patch). He recommended (and sold me) this Xtreme High-Build Primer/Sealer (http://www.autobodybrands.com/primers/fliers/5425.pdf). It claims to be an epoxy hybrid with good sealing qualities. Although, I just found out, after already spraying some fenders and the hood, that you must add urethane reducer for the sealing qualities, which I did not do. As I was spraying, the stuff just seemed too porous, and I really wonder whether it will actually seal against dew and moisture or rather absorb it.

Now I've come across threads that say you can paint over old epoxy primer by just scuffing it up. My question is whether you can do body work with epoxy primer (not bondo work) and apply surface fillers over it to get the body perfect before doing a topcoat.

Any advice? I'm scheduled to get the doors back from the dipper this Saturday and the main body the following week. I'd like to know if I should be switching to something like the SPI epoxy primer or stick with what I've got.


Thanks,

David
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Old 08-01-2005, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Now I've come across threads that say you can paint over old epoxy primer by just scuffing it up. My question is whether you can do body work with epoxy primer (not bondo work) and apply surface fillers over it to get the body perfect before doing a topcoat.
A big YES with a TRUE epoxy. This hybrid stuff,I don't have a clue.Maybe BarryK or badbob can enlighten you on the specific product.
That link won't come up. Got a brand name & product info?
Realize that most counter guy's want to SELL you something and most don't know WHAT they are selling. Not ALL but most.

The sealer your refering to is not a sealer in the sence that it seal's against the elements but as a protective seal coat prior to paint to prevent bleed thru or to create a uniform color base for the paint. Some primers can be reduced down to spray slick and "seal" the underlying primer. Hence,Primer/Sealer product. HTH. Mike.
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Old 08-01-2005, 02:48 PM
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Sorry, here's the link again:

http://www.autobodybrands.com/primers/fliers/5425.pdf

I would prefer to use epoxy primer since I know it holds up against moisture. I'm not so sure about this stuff they sold me.

-David
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Old 08-02-2005, 06:56 AM
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I've used three DTM primers by PPG and one from Dupont but never tried the stuff you've purchased. Two of the PPG primers were discontinued. Although they are great for ease of work they just don't offer the adhesion or protection a true epoxy provides (IMO). I would never consider using them on a completely stripped bare shell. IMO they are suited more for collision work where you may have a few cut throughs to bare metal in a repair area. The stuff in the link does not specify any preferred surface texture- no recomendation on sanding grit for bare metal so obviously it's just a miracle product designed for production work. I'm sure it would work fine applied over scuffed epoxy though. Your best bet IMO would be to clean the sheetmetal really well, sand with 80grit then 180 on a DA and scuff the nooks and crannies by hand then apply two-three nice medium wet coats of epoxy primer, after that the DTM primer or any polyester or urethane primer could be applied. The two most important steps when priming bare metal are getting the surface textured to provide tooth for the primer to adhere to and making sure it is perfectly clean for good adhesion.
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Old 08-02-2005, 08:16 AM
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Like Bob said, Production work.
The name about say's it all on the poop sheet.

"Taking Bodyshop Productivity To The Xtreme"

It may have a place but using it initally over a complete, I don't know. I'd rather use something known and with a proven history.
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Old 08-02-2005, 09:40 AM
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Thanks for the replies, guys. I feel much better taking advice from people not trying to sell me the stuff. I'll be ordering some epoxy primer today.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2007, 11:56 PM
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Old thread, I realize, but...

I am new to the forum. I am preparing to do all the stripping, bodywork, prep and painting of my 1967 Triumph TR-4A (Car). In years past (25 years ago), I worked with laquer on motorcycles. A lot seems to have changed since then...

I have read elsewhere that if the original paint on a car is in very good condition (and mine is- it has never been repainted), that the original paint makes for an excellent base to work on- that it is either undesirable or unnecessary to completely strip the entire car if there are no extra layers of paint on it.

What I cannot find an answer to is this:

There are some portions of the car that I will be sandblasting (engine compartment and interior) that need stripping. There are some portions that will require minor dent repair, some that will require interior panel replacement. All of the modern primers seem to have different limitations- one is for bare metal, and another is for primed metal, another for painted metal...my car will have all 3 surfaces!

Using a bc/cc as a finish, and working backwards, I am having a lot of trouble coming up with a step-by-step plan for when to prime, when to bodywork, when to use a filler primer, etc... I am also concerned about having to use different primers on different parts of the car, and how all those different products overlapping might cause hreadaches later. I will also need to use something like Oxysolve after sandblasting in order to keep the bare metal from rusting until I can either prime it or put filler in it. Some have opined that the use of this product under fillers is a bad idea.

Is there a thread in this forum that gives an example as far as a plan for how to deal with these issues, and which order to proceed if I am trying not to strip the entire car and end up with bc/cc?

Anything will be much appreciated. Thank you.

-Dave
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 09-19-2007, 01:01 AM
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Dave the best bet is epoxy primer.. People will debate till the end of time whether its best to use an acid etch, then epoxy , or epoxy only, or acid etch then 2k etc etc etc..

For top notch work, IMO, using epoxy, then your 2k build primer for blocking is the only way to go.. Acid etch is yester years technology and while it was all good back in the day.. back in the day is gone..

I would also recommend that you strip that paint job.. start off with epoxy and work your way up.. I was not alive in 67, but I would assume its lacquer..

When you read of someone working off of an existing paint job and being told its okay to do that , they are speaking of urethanes and you could do the same with acrylic enamel paints, that have one paint job on them, not multiples..

Lacquer is porous.. Its a sponge ( read acid etch.. is a lacquer primer with acid content is all.. read dont use!!)..
If your paint job is lacquer as i assume, then you dont want that sponge underneath a fresh job.. Plus you dont know whats underneath a paint job that old.. You would be surprised what you will find often..


You will hear everyone talking about 2k.. that is just a name we use for urethane primers.. epoxy is called epoxy and base coat and clear are called what they are..

i would strongly suggest you start fresh and do it right... By that I mean stripping it and starting with epoxy..

Epoxy is the same resins as Ecoat.. the stuff they dip the cars in at the factory.. Only difference is solvencys between the 2.. One is bake only, while the other can air dry (epoxy)..

A little reading infor for you as well

etch vs epoxy

epoxy on bare metal

Bare metal prep

tac rag info


This should get you going.. I am sure someone else will chime in when they read this on Wed..
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 09-19-2007, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BondoKing
I as well as countless others on this boards and others I frequent use these products and never have problems...Matthew
He means only with the products he doesn't have problems,
But he has problems, big, big problems!!!!.LOL
(and I may be one of them )
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