Ethanol Fuel - Page 4 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #46 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2005, 09:32 PM
Member
 
Last wiki edit: Vacuum brake bleeder set up
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: So Cal
Posts: 1,245
Wiki Edits: 8

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldknock
The last two posts contained references to the two largest problems, in my opinion, facing ethanol production and distribution on a national scale.

Government control and the E.P.A.

P.S.,

Minnesota has 167 E85 stations and they are all selling very well. Cold starting must not be a very big problem anymore.
I'm with you on that. Just about every alternative fuel available comes almost 100% from the US. It would be nice to thumb our noses at OPEC

The problem has been that alternative fuels are either:
A) Not in abundant enough supply for the entire US to use (like Propane)
B) Previously cost more than crude.

The government could stepped in to help "B".

One good thing Bush has done is to force the use of ethanol (used to oxygenate fuels in high smog areas). I guess that means that CA and NY fuel is E2 (2% ethanol). This is also the reason that the CA gas costs more.

From searching on alt. fuel web sites there is 1 E85 station in all of CA

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #47 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2005, 01:12 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 75
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo
Hey Radracer43. You are evidently eager to burn ethanol without the high cost of a new carburetor.I am sure your 377 is a high CR engine.Do this then.Get a simple 2 barrel carby.Could be a Holley or a Motorcraft 2100.
Replace the main jets for units about 30% larger in area.Do the same to the power valve tiny holes.On a Holley they are on the metering plate.Open up also a bit more on the accelerator nozzles.Readjust your idle screws about one and a half turns more.Advance the spark some 4 degrees.Once you practice on simple carbs,do your definite ,plating it in Nickel.

That is a crude way of converting to ethanol.Was very popular here in Brasil at the beginning of our "Proalcohol" government funded revolution to avoid petroleum in the late 70s.Our automobile industry got to a point back then that almost 90% of the new cars sold were alcohol fed.None were computerized.

Do not rely much on spark plug reading.Alcohol does not colour them much.
Keep checking the oil stick.If it changes towards a beige colour you are way too rich.Change the oil and filter and lean out.Go play!

I'm actually using about 10.3:1 compression, with the iron heads, I suppose it's a little on the high side. My only problem with trying to use a trial and error system with carbs is the inherrent cost of just trashing a few carbs to get the system right. So, I'm thinking about using something maybe similar to the sprint car crowd's hillborn, enderal, flying toilet, whtatever setups. The carb would also be more problematic since any holes drilled won't be the same for both sides of the carb, also, once it's plated, that in itself will add material, so you'd have to know how much overbore do do each hole.

So, if you can see a rich condition in the oil, how to you detect a more detrimental lean condition?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #48 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2005, 01:22 PM
Member
 
Last wiki edit: Vacuum brake bleeder set up
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: So Cal
Posts: 1,245
Wiki Edits: 8

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by radracer43
... how to you detect a more detrimental lean condition?
Wide Band O2 sensors is where it is all at. For the most part they don't care what hydrocarbon you use (if you are tuning with Lambda).

I have a DIY-2A0 from www.wbo2.com. They just released one with 1MB of logging memory that I might upgrade to.

The other way might be with exhaust gas temp (EGT) which my WBO2 controler can also measure...but that is also timing (among others) dependent
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #49 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2006, 10:09 AM
roger1's Avatar
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: San Angelo,TX
Age: 58
Posts: 1,087
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 12
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Well, after last night's State of the Union and this article last week, I thought I would reserrect this thread. Things have changed a bunch from last September.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/27/news...gedin_fortune/

Maybe this is a doomsday senario. ($262/barrel oil would mean somewhere around $7.50/gallon gasoline.) However, I do believe the confontation with Iran is unavoidable and we are looking at significantly higher gas prices going forward.

I do believe E85 is the future of automobiles in America.

As an automobile enthusiast, I would like to see further development of technology and available products to aid in the conversion of old cars to E85.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #50 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2006, 12:36 PM
ckucia's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: cleveland
Age: 47
Posts: 552
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
For anyone who is interested and has access to feedstock (crabapple trees, corn, whatever), you can get a permit to brew your own ethanol at home.

Its labor-intensive, but not too difficult.

There's a bunch of info here (among other places):

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/

Any decent rodder should be able to build a still using the plans on that site (or others) with no problem.


You can find used flexfuel Chevy/GMC trucks/SUVs on ebay quite frequently.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #51 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2006, 06:12 AM
farna's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: AMC V-8s Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Batesburg-Leesville, SC
Age: 52
Posts: 1,635
Wiki Edits: 14

Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
coldknock -- bump the compression of that bike up a couple points and you'll get your 4 mpg back most likely.

The "problems" with alcohol as a fuel aren't out of reach technically. The main problem is infrastructure in the US -- it just isn't there. There are few distilleries making fuel grade alcohol. Once large scale production starts costs will start to go down, but there's only so much farm land also. So you get back into another problem. Corn isn't the answer -- sugar beets are. As someone pointed out, the higher the sugar content, the more alcohol is produced, and more importantly, it's easier to produce. Sugar cane is harder to grow than beets.

As gasoline prices rise, alternate fuels become more cost effective. As they become more cost effective, they become more attractive to industry and the consumer. When prices for gasoline reach and maintain close to $5 a gallon in today's economy, alcohol could be cost competitive. Then the infrastructure problem will start to be addressed.

With hydrogen technology coming up, mainly as fuel cells, I can see the day when rodders are running alcohol. I don't think gasoline will go away for a long time, and it's likely that as we wean ourselves off of it for regular transportation that there comes the day when it's harder to find, sort of like kerosene now (kerosene was the first big oil product way before gasoline -- that was a "useless" by product of producing kerosene in the 1800s!). You can find it, at reasonable cost, but you're not gonna find it at every station. And I'll bet that gasoline gets heavily regulated since most alternates burn cleaner. But rodders and industrial users should keep an alcohol and/or gasoline business going for quite some time. I can see the day that only off-road vehicles are allowed to run gasoline though. Not in my lifetime, but I bet the youngest guys here (16-18 years olds) get to see it before they pass on -- assuming they live to be in their 80s!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #52 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2006, 07:18 AM
ckucia's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: cleveland
Age: 47
Posts: 552
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Another point about Ethanol...

A lot of proponents are saying that ethanol is cost effective now, because it can be made for $1.50/gallon (I've seen figures anywhere from $1.10 to $1.80).

That sounds great compared to gasoline, which in my 'hood is now around $2.11/gal.

What they forget, is that the feds are charging 18.4cents/gallon in taxes (24.4 on diesel), and my state charges 28 cents/gallon for both gasoline and gasohol (29 cents on diesel). Couldn't discover what the feds are taxing ethanol or e85 at.

So, that $2.11 gas actually could have been sold by the station (less taxes) for about $1.65. Ethanol doesn't look so competitive then, especially when you consider a gallon doesn't go as far.

Sure, if you're making it at home, you might be able to justify it, but right now, comparing wholesale gasoline to wholesale ethanol costs, it just doesn't make sense commercially.


This is a little off topic:
I'm not sure what the laws are, but I think if a bunch of gas station owners got together and started posting their gas prices before tax, with some fine print saying "plus tax" on the signs, they'd generate some real consumer awareness about how much taxes are causing the hurt at the pump.

I think most consumers assume one of two things: 1) gas is tax free (those are the dumber ones) or 2) gas is taxed at the same sales tax rate as everything else.

In my state, sales taxes are 5.5%, so gasoline is taxed more than 2x as much as everything else. When you roll in the federal taxes, its a 30% rate at today's pretax gas prices.

In my state (Ohio) we don't charge sales tax on food or medicine because they are necessities. For most of us, gasoline is just as much a necessity (good luck making a living or getting food or medicine without it), yet we're taxed through the wazoo on it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #53 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2006, 07:29 AM
Technical Support Barry Grant
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dahlonega, GA
Posts: 1,503
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
There are a ton of pro's & con's to using ethanol or E-85, or at least looking into other fuels. One thing to keep in mind with the pricing of E-85 specifically right now is that it is subsidized from the government through the farmers. Not sure how this would or could change as it becomes more of a commonly used fuel.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #54 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2006, 01:39 PM
Rhansen's Avatar
Footbraker
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Davenport, Iowa
Age: 45
Posts: 584
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
You can compare the difference in "subsidies" (tax incentives) for yourself here - http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=1
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.