Ethanol Fuel - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2004, 01:56 AM
ChevelleSS_LS6's Avatar
Jeep XJ and a Javelin
 
Last wiki edit: Compression test
Last journal entry: August 9, part III
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Age: 29
Posts: 1,614
Wiki Edits: 7

Thanks: 6
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Lightbulb Ethanol Fuel

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/factfic_enperf.html

All of the info looks good; high octane, clean burning, etc. but how would us hotrodders convert our old iron to run on that stuff? And where would we get ethanol? How much does it cost?

Aha, yes, 113 Octane Ethanol means we can build up engines with 11.0 compression ratios without worrying much about knocking and pinging.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2004, 07:45 AM
Tazz
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: amherst,ohio
Age: 66
Posts: 2,049
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I have run it with no problems or mods to my engines.

I have never heard of making changes to the engine to accommodate the ethanol but there may be a trick or two I haven't heard yet.


Tazz


Rat Rods Rule!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2004, 01:37 PM
firestone's Avatar
http://teamrfc.gospelcom.net
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fenton MI
Age: 32
Posts: 1,743
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
The ethanol that you would run in a street car would be E85. It is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. I think it is a really good idea. As far as what needs to be done to accomodate your motor, it mainly has to do with rubber parts that werent made for ethanol drying out. My main concern on an older motor would be the carb. As far as where to get it, there are several gas stations that carry it around the US. If you do a little searching on the internet, I am sure you could find a gas staton in your area that has it. It is usually quite a bit cheaper than regular fuel, but it burns about 30% faster because you can mix it at a higher ratio than regular fuel. That is why it makes more hp aslo. Not many people know this buy many new cars are automatically designed to run on E85 they are called "felxable fuel vehicles". Also all government cars, at least in Nebraska, run on it.

Adam
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2004, 02:47 PM
coldknock's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Social Circle, Ga.
Age: 43
Posts: 1,531
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Some decrease in mileage can be expected unless you jack up the compression and take advantage of the higher octane rating.

More cylinder pressure will raise the engines efficiency up to help compensate for the lower energy released from the E85. It won't offset the entire loss but it would help.

I can see no reason why an engine couldn't be built to take full advantage of the fuels higher knock resistance and be just as efficient as a gas burning engine.

Larry
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2004, 11:21 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Shreveport LA
Age: 65
Posts: 5,103
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
It's corrosive to the pot metal that carburetors are made of.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2004, 11:56 PM
ChevelleSS_LS6's Avatar
Jeep XJ and a Javelin
 
Last wiki edit: Compression test
Last journal entry: August 9, part III
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Age: 29
Posts: 1,614
Wiki Edits: 7

Thanks: 6
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
aren't carb parts made of brass, and isn't alcohol corrosive to it? Well that's what I thought. Maybe I'm wrong.

If they built cars to run off straight E85, we could have 11.0:1 compression commonplace again
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2004, 08:29 AM
Rhansen's Avatar
Footbraker
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Davenport, Iowa
Age: 45
Posts: 590
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
I researched this for a paper last semester (persuasive paper on the advantages of E85) and found that the conversion is not too difficult, though I didn't address the conversion in my paper. There is a lot of information available on the topic and several universities have done E85 conversions successfully. Basically the mixture needs to be enriched (for max power - lean limits are similar to gasoline) and you can run more advance. Engine temps are lowered and cold starting becomes more difficult. One of the conversion projects used a MSD 6 box to overcome the cold start issue. E85 is agressive towards certain plastics and non-anodized aluminum (Edelbrock said my 1406 is compatible with the fuel). I also found out that the old "high test" gas contained a large amount of ethanol to raise the octane, so I would suspect that most of the old muscle cars would only need a jetting change. A quick search will turn up lots of info (including materials compatibility).
Attached is a (poorly formatted) text file of my paper if anyone is interested.
Attached Files
File Type: txt alternative fuels ethanol txt.txt (10.9 KB, 149 views)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2004, 09:07 AM
coldknock's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Social Circle, Ga.
Age: 43
Posts: 1,531
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
That was absolutely beautiful Rhansen. When do get to see that put to good use, like educating the general public? It would be nice to have an E85 option at every pump.

Larry
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2004, 09:37 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Australia ???
Age: 56
Posts: 159
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
down here in aus ethenol was used in pump fuel for a while , a lot of late model cars had engine problems , my old v8 loved it ..
must have a tad more compression , they dont have it now,(so they reckon)..

?? is it corrosive..

Simo from aus...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2004, 01:38 PM
Rhansen's Avatar
Footbraker
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Davenport, Iowa
Age: 45
Posts: 590
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Another good link here - gives good info on materials compatibility.
http://www.westbioenergy.org/reports...5019_final.htm
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2004, 07:08 PM
johnsongrass1's Avatar
Race it, Don't rice it!
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Columbia, Mo
Age: 38
Posts: 4,196
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 20 Times in 19 Posts
Where's 4jaw?

He's full of .....this kind of infomation
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2004, 08:58 PM
firestone's Avatar
http://teamrfc.gospelcom.net
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fenton MI
Age: 32
Posts: 1,743
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rhansen, I did a feasibility project on the use of E89 also. That is kind of a weird coincidence. Where do you go to school? I am a fourth year Mechanical Engineering student at the University of Nebraska at Lincoln.

Adam
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2004, 05:29 AM
Rhansen's Avatar
Footbraker
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Davenport, Iowa
Age: 45
Posts: 590
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
I'm going to a community college for now - to get some math out of the way. I'll most likely end up at Iowa State to finish out my degree.
Need to hurry it up so I can build my 12:1 CR daily driver (ethanol fueled of course). It will probably get 8 mpg and 2 tires every oil change
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2004, 07:03 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lexington, Kentucky
Posts: 122
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
GM also uses teflon coated fuel lines to prevent the alcohol from attacking the steel fuel lines. They also provide a different computer, with a wider tuning capibility to switch back and forth between E85 and regular gas. Tuning is drastically different.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2004, 08:31 AM
1BAD80's Avatar
The Smell of Nitro in the morn
 
Last wiki edit: How to adjust valves Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Mich
Posts: 2,423
Wiki Edits: 2

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
The blend of the ethenol (corn alcohol) is normally 10% with gas.
Its been in Mich. for years and still is.
The postings kinda reads that some are thinking of using it in a higher percentage. Feds want 15% ethenol in the future.
The jetting and amount of ethenol with compression must be considered.
The more alcohol, the more needed to burn almost twice that of gas.
The mix at the pumps does not need any jet changes.
Its all in the combination of parts used to build the motor, a 12:1 can be built to run on 93 octane pump gas.

As quoted from the site given:
Keep this in mind when designing an ethanol powered vehicle:

"Even after all the top brains have figured out everything on paper and failed to make it work, they still have access to tons of diagnostic equipment and large chunks of money to find out "why not?" Normally, Detroit doesn’t put things on the market unless most of the bugs have been ironed out. This ironing out process has so far taken over 80 years for the gasoline engine."[10] - Michael H. Brown, 1981.

All looks good on paper, just like desiging of the cars.
What looks good on paper does not work all the time in real life.
89/93 octane gas with ethenol is still a 89/93 octane burn rate.
my $.002 cents worth.
__________________
Luv the smell of NITRO in the morning.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.