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extra insulation help..

8K views 65 replies 12 participants last post by  Second Skin Rep 
#1 ·
Hi. I will be putting in Raamatt in my 37 in the next few weeks. On the firewall, and front floor I want to put a little more besides the Raamatt. That insulation with the Mylar (silver) sheets on both sides of a bubble wrap. Is that any good?? Thanks.. Al
 
#27 · (Edited)
APalusky,
you fell for some marketing "bling"????
if you had researched further you would have found that Peel and Seal is indeed Butyl rubber and has as little smell as any....
(there are asphalt "tapes" products that could smell and melt)
the aluminum foil layer on top stops odors period on any of them...
Hot Rodders have been using it for many many years with no failures or faults....
next visit to HD/Lowes smell a roll....

somehow, Dan and I constantly "cross swords", on wording a "technical interpetation" because of different back grounds...
as he said, and I agree, if you live in a low humidity/no rain climate and pamper the car even jute can be used...
(we always do sort out what the other is saying)

it's the glue on the surface used to bond the carpet foam pieces together that is making the surface water repellent....

it's "radiant heat" coming into a car,,, the aluminized bubbles will reflect it and stop it from getting soaked up in the carpet

LOL,,,
use some of both....
 
#29 · (Edited)
red65mustang said:
APalusky,
you fell for some marketing "bling"????
if you had researched further you would have found that Peel and Seal is indeed Butyl rubber and has as little smell as any....
(there are asphalt "tapes" products that could smell and melt)
the aluminum foil layer on top stops odors period on any of them...
Hot Rodders have been using it for many many years with no failures or faults....
next visit to HD/Lowes smell a roll....
According to the manufacturer, Peel and Seal is a rubberized asphalt product. CLICK HERE Because asphalt melts at high temps and gets brittle in cold temps, the rubber is added to make it more heat resistant on the high end and more pliable on the low end.
There is a difference between it and the higher priced products for a reason. I'm not saying not to use it, I'm saying that you are not being "ripped off" if you decide to use some of the more expensive products. If something is thicker, has a better adhesive, or has more butyl content, it will cost more. You get what you pay for, and each car owner should decide on his own how much money to put into sound deadeners.
If you decide to use leather in your car instead of vinyl, or wool carpet instead of synthetic, it's a personal choice, just like what to use for sound deadening.
 
#30 ·
I bought the Raamatt, because I could get more product for less money. Dynamat Extreme wouldn't have been enough to do the floor all the way back and do the trunk, and the doors as well.. I guess because this will probably be my only car, and I have basicly built it by myself. Money gets rather tight. At our local Home Depot. They didn't have Peel and Seal execpt for the ice barier for roofs. I have a ton of that stuff, but is only about 1/16" thick, and does smell like asphalt. Now I have heard from a friend that has been helping me via the internet that I should double up on material on the firewall, under my feet and back to the riser for the rear seat. I guess that alot of heat builds up right there. Now would I use that carpet foam on both of these areas before putting down the carpet??, and do I have to use carpet that is designed for auto use??
 
#31 ·
Put the carpet padding wherever you are putting carpet. No, you don't have to use automotive carpet, but it will be more pliable and easier to install than regular home carpet or indoor outdoor carpet.
 
#39 ·
By higher priced brands, do you mean something like B-Quiet Extreme which is also rubberized asphalt based? If I buy 100 square ft. of B-Quiet, it will cost me $140. 100 sq. ft. of Peel and Seal will cost me $132. The sales tax on $132 where I live is $7.26. The B-Quiet is slightly thicker, has better adhesive, and is 12" wide, while the Peel and Seal is 6" wide. For 74 cents I'll stick with the B-Quiet. LOL
 
#40 ·
Peel and Seal is $1 per sq ft at my local Lowes store and on the shelf at widths up 36".....
(6"x25'=$12.68=12.5sq ft)
I posted the pic' just to show what the label looks like...

so,,,LOL

is B-quiet 40% more mass density and mils thickness per sq foot????

I quit,,,they all do dampen sound,,,found one note that peel and seal is tested/approved to remain flexible to -25*F on a roof so the far far north cars could have a problem...

merry xmas to all...
 
#41 ·
I live in Duluth Minnesota.. I would have a problem. I have the Raamatt. It came 15"x50'. It is 60 mils thick. It is made of butyl. It cost me $118. It will take up to 300 degrees. Not sure about the cold though. I would just like to know where I should double up on the material. Without the two of you fighting about which product is the best. I bought one that isn't even one that the two of you are talking about. Though it is good information either way. If I run out of the Raamatt. I'll get some Peel and Seal for the trunk area. Al
 
#42 · (Edited)
red65mustang said:
I quit,,,they all do dampen sound,,,found one note that peel and seal is tested/approved to remain flexible to -25*F on a roof so the far far north cars could have a problem...

merry xmas to all...
First of all, I'm not trying to argue about which product is best, I was only using the B-Quiet to compare. I don't care what anyone else uses. I'm only trying to point out that there is a tangible reason there is a difference in price and not just "marketing hype". I also take exception to someone telling me I'm a dope for using anything but Peel&Seal. If that's the case, then there are a lot of dopes out there.

The temperature range for B-Quiet Extreme is -67 F to +230 F, which tells me that there's more asphalt and less rubber in Peel&Seal.

Still think all these products are all the same?

Here's one more thing to think about. If Peel&Seal was the same as all the higher priced products, why doesn't someone at their corporate headquarters have sense enough to put "sound dampening in cars" as a recommended usage for their product? I guess they don't need any more sales or another customer base for their product. Could it be that it's NOT recommended for that application?

BTW, to answer your question: Put more of whatever sound dampener you want over the parts of your car that generate the most heat under/behind them, like over the part of your floor where the muffler/mufflers are and the firewall.
 
#43 · (Edited)
Dan,
I'm not saying Peel and Seal is better,,,,, just cheaper!!!

the B-Quiet Extreme web site "claims" 230*,,,it failed at 160* on this test!!!:
http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/heat/

which is the approx same failure temp range as Peel and Seal, (has to stay stable at 158* for 8 days or something like that to pass roofing codes)

both are 45mils thick so I'm skeptical about the B-Quiet minus 67* temp rating claim as well....

I have read before and again in that article link that MFM Building Products Mfg. does make several of the "auto" sound deadener brands....
(maybe even B-Quiet?)
the "Peel and Seal" product name is for MFM's roofing products "line" for the past 20? years

use any brand you like....
 
#44 ·
APalusky,
food for thought:
if one layer of RAAmatt sound deadener and a layer or two of which ever insulation and the carpet aren't enough to keep the cabin cool,,,

you need to address the heat source problem directly because it is likely burning/blistering the paint on the outside and inside....

may need heat shields on the exhaust pipes, foil barrier on the outside, whatever....

how effective is RAAmatt for reflecting (radiant) heat?
stick a small piece on a (195*) radiator hose and measure the foil temp with a meat thermometer or your finger...

found some RAAmatt specific install instructions that might help ya:
http://www.raamaudio.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?p=ht

and they do have a closed cell foam but no insulation "R" value rating is mentioned
 
#45 ·
Havn't had the engine started. There is nothing in the interior yet. I had to build my own firewall and floor out of 18 gauge sheet metal. I want to do it right, because it is my first, and only build. I was told by a friend about RaaMatt. Dynamat was rather expensive for what you got in the extreme bulk pack. I wanted to do as much as I can with the material I have now. The RaaMatt I bought for $118. is 15" wide by 50' long. It is 60 mils thick. I needed to know how much, and where.. Al
 

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#46 · (Edited)
red65mustang said:
Dan,
I'm not saying Peel and Seal is better,,,,, just cheaper!!!

the B-Quiet Extreme web site "claims" 230*,,,it failed at 160* on this test!!!:
http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/heat/

which is the approx same failure temp range as Peel and Seal, (has to stay stable at 158* for 8 days or something like that to pass roofing codes)

both are 45mils thick so I'm skeptical about the B-Quiet minus 67* temp rating claim as well....

I have read before and again in that article link that MFM Building Products Mfg. does make several of the "auto" sound deadener brands....
(maybe even B-Quiet?)
the "Peel and Seal" product name is for MFM's roofing products "line" for the past 20? years

use any brand you like....
I'm confused........So now those of us who don't use Peel&Seal exclusively are not dopes who have fallen prey to the marketing hype of the more expensive products?

How did Peel&Seal do in the sound deadener showdown? Oh, that's right it wasn't part of the sound deadener showdown, was it? That's because it's a roofing product.

Maybe MFM building products does make B-Quiet Extreme to B-Quiets specs. That happens all the time in every industry. Document your 158* claim for Peel&Seal. Read the factory recommendations in this link. Here are the specs for Peel&Seal right from MFM. CLICK HERE Nowhere does it claim to be anything but a waterproofing roof repair product, nor does it have a high temp rating of any kind, only the -25* pliability claim.
 
#47 · (Edited)
APalusky,
leave the sound deadener install till all is fabricated and epoxied and painted....
don't do it till it's time to install the carpet and interior...

food for thought:
the firewall is a main heat source into the car, (because of so many sq in of area) fabricate it as a double wall with even just a 1/8- 1/4" dead air space makes a world of difference for a cooler interior...

where to stick the sound deadener is based on doing a "thump" test with your knuckle or a hammer handle on all the panels to see if they are behaving like a drum head when all is finished...
(as explained in the RAAmatt instructions link)

Dan,
the spec page for Peel&Seal states it meets/passed ASTM D 1970 and ICC-ES testing specifications...
read the ICC-ES cold and heat testing section under 4.9.1

http://www.icc-es.org/Criteria/pdf_files/ac48.pdf

good luck trying to find even MSDS sheets to know what is in the "car" brand deadeners,,,
the sound deadener article is the only "independent" tests I've seen for how they do behave...
it is noted in the article that one or more of the products tested "appears" to just be Peel&Seal....
(send a email to B-quiet and get the product MSDS sheet and testing specs? it may be a better product???)

you aren't comfortable using a "building" product in a car,,,don't use it...

for others, here's a thread about similar "building" products with more info about deadeners:

http://www.civicforums.com/forums/2...-comparison-sound-deadening-damping-mats.html
 
#48 ·
Sound Deadner versus Insulation

This thread was a long read, but my curiousity keep me in. I lost track of your objective - sound, heat or both - but you should be concerned with both.
Here's my experience. After several builds I learned my lesson.
First, a good dense sound deadner like Dynamat (nothing denser than Dynamat Original or Damplifier Pro - the sounddeadnershowdown.com shows this) on all flat surfaces that can resonante. I put this inside one (of 4) doors that had lost it's original waffled OEM sound deadner and on the flat inside panels of all 4 doors. It went on all flat floor panels and firwall. The roof had the original stuff and it's a lot of work to remove so I left it - it's not as dense as Dynamat but that was my compromise. Dynamat is expensive (don't do this on the cheap).
After that, a true automotive insulation went in. This stuff is about $40 for a 4'x6' piece. It comes aluminum one side or both sides. Thermotec can be bought at any good hot rod shop, like Jegs, under part no.s 54120 & 54125.
I used 1-sided first, aluminum down, then I added a second layer (not overkill, but close) of 2-sided.
I spent about $500 all told. I'm so happy I did. I got results! Car is dead quiet, remains cool in summer and a tiny heater works fine.
That's my advice - hope it jives with what the others have been saying - wouldn't want to rev anybody up.
 
#49 ·
gordforman said:
This thread was a long read, but my curiousity keep me in. I lost track of your objective - sound, heat or both - but you should be concerned with both.
You are exactly right. Whatever a person does to deaden sound or dissipate heat will be an improvement over doing nothing. What each individual wants to use or spend is up to them. I lean towards your ideas of using more expensive products that are intended for use in cars.
 
#50 ·
Sorry.. I didn't know that this thread went this long, but it is good information. I have some sealing up to do first but it is to cold here to do anything right now. I have no heat in the garage. I bought RaaMatt. I will be using that first on all of panels. I also have the oem material on the roof. I plan to go around that material with the RaaMatt or strips of Dynamatt Extreme. I found the insulation at JCWhitney. I also read up on the glue used to hold it down. I figure by the time it is done with just the matting put down I may be up about 1/2".
Now after all of the RaaMatt, and the other insulation is put on especialy the firewall.. Would I then use the foam used under carpet before carpet?? Or is that overkill.. I am also going to use a automotive type carpet. I heard that it forms around the tunnel better than home carpet does.. Thanks for all of your information and Help.. Al
 
#51 ·
Just did this and used dynamat.....want dynamat at a good price check out amazon.com, they sell it, extreme pack for a 100 cheaper then I have found .. an idea to keep in mind is to use alum tape over the seems and a wall paper roller is cheaper then the official tool, works the same ... good stuff but wait until you are at the reassembly stage before you lay it down and I mean the wiring also ... just an fyi


coverage: it took 3 extreme packs for a 32 truck, that was the firewall, roof, rear of cab, cowl top and sides, floor top and underside, with enough left over to do the doors ...
 
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