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Old 12-21-2004, 09:15 PM
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A few 5.0 mototr questions

I have just a few quick 1990 5.0 engine questions. First what is the firing order? Second what is the proper way of changing the rear seal (one piece) with the crank in. Third and lastly, what would be a good cam for a carborated, RPM Air Gap intake, header equipped motor?

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Old 12-21-2004, 11:49 PM
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1. 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

2. Very carefully so no damage to the crank occurs. I like to use a small diameter long shank punch to penetrate into the seal and pry it out. A flat screw driver will also work.

3. If the original heads are on the engine the original cam is best. Going to a cam with more duration and/or overlap will not be a good match with unported stock heads. Gains can be had with the stock cam by increasing the lift by installing 1.7 ratio bolt down rockers from Crane.
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Old 12-22-2004, 12:05 AM
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With the seal deal I was wondering if you needed to simply push the new one in, or put some material(silicone)etc to hold it, or loosen off the rear main install and tighten? Thanks for the firing order though.
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Old 12-22-2004, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by FAIRLANE DUDE

With the seal deal I was wondering if you needed to simply push the new one in, or put some material(silicone)etc to hold it, or loosen off the rear main install and tighten? Thanks for the firing order though.
You can carefully tap the new one in, but FORD has a special service tool to gently press the new seal in. I would use the tool. No loosening of the cap is required.
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:12 PM
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carb choice

A 600 Vacuum secondary would probably be the best all around carb for your engine.
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Old 12-22-2004, 09:02 PM
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I was thinking about a 650 DP for carborator. Thanks for the info on the rear seal etc.
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Old 12-22-2004, 09:16 PM
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carb info

A 650 DP is definately too much carb for your 302. I made that mistake back in the early 70's, on a 302. it actually ran half a second faster with a 500 CFM on it, and that was with a very healthy Sig Erson 226 degree/ .475 lift cam, headers, dual point, mild porting, etc etc etc.

As for a cam, you have a pretty stout one as a factory unit.
What kind of tranny are you running? What rear gear?

BTW, my 302 was in a 69 Mustang, with a C-4 and 3.88 gears.

I shifted at 6000 rpm.

A Weiand Stealth would be an excellent intake,as would an Offenhouser 360, or an Edelbrock RPM.

Last edited by Max Keith; 12-22-2004 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:41 PM
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I agree with max keith......

.....I have watched what some of the mustang fellas have done using the stock HO roller and it makes for a nice street cam....or street/strip for that matter.

Not sure what a fairlane weighs vs a mustang but if your thinking weight is an issue, the 302HO roller camshaft is used by many first generation lightning owners, as a replacement for the stock flat tappet, to give them a little more performance.
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Old 12-22-2004, 11:12 PM
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I'm running a 3:55 gear and a C-4 trans with maybe a B&M 2400 stall. Why is it a 350 chev will run fine on a 750, but a 302 won't take a 650? I've heard that using 1.7 rollor rockers will pick up some lift/duration on a stock cam and wake it up alittle.
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Old 12-23-2004, 09:11 AM
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carb choices

As for the 1.7 rocker arms, that will gain you a 6% increase in lift and no gain in duration. I dont know the exact lift of the stock roller cam but this could probably net you about .028-.030" in lift.
Going to the higher ratio rocker arms will net you about 4-5 HP at your peak RPM, and according to dyno tests, which usually show rpm power measurements in 500 rpm increments, you will net 1-3 hp at each measuring point. This may not sound like a lot but see it this way. If you have 5000 peak rpm, and adding all the gains together, based on the 500 rpm figures, you would stand to gain between 10-20 hp total out of putting roller rockers on your engine. Dont look at just the peak HP and Torque figures.

You have to take into consideration what the volumetric flow of the engine is capable of. Putting excessive carburetion on your engine will cause your performance to drop off, considering driveability, and throttle response at low end. Particularly running a double pumper with an automatic transmission.

I know this is going to stir up an age old arguement, over the carburation formula, again, but you can only put so much fuel air mixture in an engine.
With the standard carburetion formula, your 302 only requires 524 CFM of fuel air intake at 6000 RPM. I guess the way I look at it is why send a dump truck to move one shovel ful of gravel.
If you this were going to be a high rpm race vehicle turning say 7000 or more rpm, a 650 would be a good choice. But that would also require the mods to the engine to turn that high.
Youre engine, I take it is stock, so putting a 650 cfm carb on it isnt necessary or even desired.
Nor is a 2400 rpm stall converter.
Your stock C-4 has plenty of stall, and what a lot of people dont realize is that even with a stock converter, the more torque your engine puts out, the higher the stall will be, even with the stock unit.
On my 69 Mustang, the stock stall was 1700 RPM. After working over the engine, with no change in converters, my stall went up to 2100 RPM. Stall is the RPM, where when you have the brakes set and firewall the throttle, the engine stops gaining rpm.
If you would like to upgrade your cam, I would recommend going to the Ford E303 or F303, or an aftermarket grind compareable to them. These are good profiles and will give you a big boost in power without your suffering from driveability.
As for your vehicle weight, there isnt much difference in what your Fairlane weighs and what my 69 Mustang weighed.
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Old 12-23-2004, 12:17 PM
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I've heard that a stock c-4 converter has a little higer stall compared to a th-350 counterpart. I'm a chevy guy and guess that I'm in a different mentality with this little ford, I've got a 606 hp 468 that I'm used to playing with. I'll likely go to a 303 cam and a 600 carb, possibly add rockers down the road. As far as the converter I'll wait and see how this "stocker" will react to some mods.
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Old 12-23-2004, 12:46 PM
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stock converter

I think if you stay with the E303 or F303 cam, you will be very happy with the stock stall. Those are both heavy on bottom and midrange power and have good top ends as well. The F303 has better top end and a little less bottom end than does the E303.

The E303 has a power band of 2500-5500 and the F303 has a power band of 2800-6000.
The E303 is the better choice for an automatic, particularly if you havent done any mods to it like a higher stall.
Both will pull off the line quite well, with your 3.55 gear. If you do elect to go to a higher stall, I would go for one thats only marginally higher than stock, like a B&M Holeshot 2400, at the most.
I would try it with the stock converter first, and see how you like its response. You must also not forget, that the higher the stall, the more heat generated in your tranny fluid, and that shortens tranny life.
At any rate, I would install a tranny cooler rated for a 6-8000 GVW vehicle, and bypass the cooler mounted in the radiator. The reason for going with that high of cooling rating is that its difficult to keep tranny fluid cool and this is one case where bigger is almost always better.
As for stall comparisons between a TH350 and a C4, your guess is as good as mine. I have experienced driving C4's with stalls ranging from 1600-2200 RPM in a variety of vehicles. Stall is also in the hands of your torque curve as well. For example, I remember years ago, guys were putting the smaller Chevy Vega TC's behind their V-8's to raise the stall speed. The Vega units were a lot smaller in diameter, and while they would stall the stock 4 banger at around 16-1800 rpm, with the V-8's they were able to double that stall.

To get the best out of your C-4, as well as longer usage life, I would install a shift kit in it. Go with a street performance setup rather than the full on competition unit. The street/strip kit will give you the option of shifting yourself or putting it in drive and go. VS the competition units which you will have to shift manually, yourself, all the time. The full comp units also have a reversed shift pattern in the 3 forward ranges, which requires an after market shifter for reverse pattern shifting.

The C-4, if it was made from 66 on up has a manual shift pattern but its governed so that you cant down shift after attaining certain rpms.
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Old 12-23-2004, 03:59 PM
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I have a really big (haevy duty) coolor that will work real well for this combo. If I'm not mistaken the converter that I had my eye on was a B&M torque master 2400 used(new in box) cheap! I have also talked to my transmission guys who will be rebuilding my 1972 vintage trans with a few little tricks and a shift kit after christmas. The whole cam deal is still a topic for discussion as I plan on a new exhaust system for the car and love the lope of a camshaft threw the right mufflers at idle. The other concern is that next winter I'm going to add a pair of twisted wedge heads and a rebiuld for the motor, possibly a 347 stroker and don't want to buy another camsahft later, just seems like a watse. Maybe just sit on the cam for now and see how she runs with the stocker and no lope!
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Old 12-23-2004, 04:14 PM
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cam shafts

That sounds like a good idea. My son has a 93 stang with a 347 stroker in it and hes running Brodix heads (not my favorite choice), with a lot of Ford GT intake stuff, and has the B303 cam in it, He is very happy with that cam. It falls in between the other two cams I mentioned, in duration but is a little shorter on lift. Hes got the 1.7 rocker arms to add the lift though.
There is no doubt that if you went with any one of these three cams, they would work just as well or even better with the 347.
More on the Brodix heads. He had the engine built by a shop in Chicago that specializes in Chevy engines (BIG MISTAKE), and basically they sold him a bill of goods on parts. Took him to the cleaners on it. As for the Brodix heads, they are expensive and arent the best heads on the market for Ford engines. Brodix is mainly a Chevy oriented company, and they dont do the R&D on the Ford and Mopar stuff like they do for the Bow Ties.
I personally am a strong proponent of the Twisted Wedge and other Trick Flow heads, as far as the aftermarket stuff goes.
For a steel head I would go with Rouch heads, in aftermarkets.

For the torque converter, the B&M 2400 isnt a bad one for your setup, and the cooler is awesome.
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