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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2013, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
Forgot to add this: If using Epoxy resin it also has a downside in that an amine blush, which feels "waxy" on the cured epoxy, the waxy blush must be washed away with warm water before successive layers can be laminated! if you don't do this your layers will eventually peal like a loaf of sliced bread!!

Jester
Sorry Jester.. But the wax don't just wash off.. If your using the resin with the wax.. The right way to add anymore layers, Is to sand it with 36 grit paper, Then wipe it with acetone, It will become tacky again, Then add your layers..That's the right way to work with resin with wax..

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2013, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
OK Brian, here is my take on doing or recommending this type of repair. If your working on a car that has no value today or in the future and your only concerned about it lasting for a few months...go ahead, knock yourself out, plug the rust with fiberglass. If your working on a classic, say for example a 69 Mustang and the roof is rotted out...would you recommend filling the rust holes or repairing the rusted areas properly by replacing the rust with metal or maybe, depending on the amount of rust, the whole roof. In my opinion it's not a matter of "next bestest", it's a matter of bringing a classic back to it's original condition. If the owner doesn't have the knowledge or the equipment then I would suggest one of 2 options, either get the knowledge and the equipment or hire a person that can do the job properly. Too many a good, restorable vehicle, and we've all seen them, have been butchered to the point where a proper restoration isn't feasible anymore.

In my youth I made too many stupid mistakes with cars that today would be valuable, be damned if I'm going to pass on information to people remotely suggesting that fiberglass out of a can is an acceptable and respectable way to repair rust or restore a classic.

Just my thoughts.

Ray



I'm with you Ray, the value of the car has a lot to do with it, I did it to my 59 Rambler, not exactly kicking fenders with the 65 Shelby. And again, I am talking not about my opinion on what is right or wrong with another mans car, just as I am not going to tell him what color to paint it. We aren't talking about a particular car like a 69 Mustang, we are talking these repairs in general and no car is mentioned correct? I thought that is what this thread was about.

Because most every subject in auto repair is going to change from one end of the spectrum to the other in quality depending on each car and each owners expectations.

I merely tossed out there a way you could take care of SOME repairs on SOME cars. What car and what repair would require a more thoughtful discussion.

As I said, my Ramblers repair was literally a test bed, I don't do those sort of repairs either, but being it comes up here and other forums now and again I thought I would toss out maybe a "correct way to do it incorrectly".

My Ramblers been on the road driving it every day for almost two years now, the floor looks exactly as the day I did it, both top and bottom. It has met THIS cars owners expectations And I have to assume with the 290 million car owners in America I am not the only one. So there is a place for this type of repair, that is all I am saying.

There are some people who are going to cut corners, I feel it is better to tell them to do it correct incorrectly than to tell them nothing being they are going to do it anyway.

Brian
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:27 PM
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Adding fiberglass to metal is no different then laying fiberglass on top of a sheel of glass,,, it will peal right off... Can you make it stick to metal... Sure you can... But not for long... It WILL over time pop right off..That's the point I was trying to make here..
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:31 PM
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What is the body structure on a 63 Corvette made out of? That is why the epoxy is applied first, the fiberglass is then bonding to epoxy. I understand your point and agree it isn't the right way to do it, but there is a little bit of a gray area that has worked for me and my Rambler, figured I would toss it out there.

Brian
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:32 PM
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What is the body structure on a 63 Corvette made out of?

Brian
But the glass is BONDED to the metal... There's a reason they didn't just glass it to the metal..

Now I know YOU know the epoxy was added for other reasons..
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS View Post
But the glass is BONDED to the metal... There's a reason they didn't just glass it to the metal..
You are right, that bonding is the epoxy primer I am talking about.

No argument Randy, we are just tossing around info so everything is understood.

Brian
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
You are right, that bonding is the epoxy primer I am talking about.

No argument Randy, we are just tossing around info so everything is understood.

Brian
the epoxy primer was added to protect the metal,,, The bonding will work without the epoxy,, Now you should know this..
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2013, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS View Post
the epoxy primer was added to protect the metal,,, The bonding will work without the epoxy,, Now you should know this..
I'm sorry, what am I missing, haven't you been saying the fiberglass DOESN'T bond to the metal and comes off? I'm sorry I don't understand, explain please.

Brian
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Old 02-12-2013, 02:59 PM
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Yes Brian...I understand completely what your saying and that's why I said, "my opinion"....I've done it, anyone whose been in the trade for any length of time has done it....and I'm confident that we agree and it is dependent on the car and the expected life span of the repair ....there is another thread on this forum right now entitled "Evercoats: Fiber Tech, Everglass, Kitty Hair, Tiger Hair, Metal to Metal", it concerns a 1968 Mustang Coupe with rust holes in the roof and the OP was wondering which product is better...I didn't want to respond to the thread but this thread has prompted me to respond.

Maybe read the thread and let me know what your opinion would be for the OP....Very often they may read another thread and think that the "bestest" way is an acceptable way, no matter what kind of car they have. My response was in more of a form of a question, which was "why not repair it properly", and I suggested that if they where on a tight budget to save their money and do it properly over time.

Again, just my thoughts.

Ray
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
I'm sorry, what am I missing, haven't you been saying the fiberglass DOESN'T bond to the metal and comes off? I'm sorry I don't understand, explain please.

Brian
MAN !!!! You CAN bond it with the RIGHT stuff... I'm saying if you sand your hood and lay up FIBERGLASS AND cloth over a hole in your hood.. It WILL NOT HOLD....

There is stuff like speed grip that will hold a fiber glass part to metal.... But fiberglass layed up on metal will pop off.. What do you not understand ???
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:11 PM
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I was saying that the epoxy primer sticks to the metal and the fiberglass sticks to the epoxy primer, thus the fiberglass doesn't fall off, that is what I had said and didn't understand your post that's all, geeeez Mr Grumpy.

Brian
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
Yes Brian...I understand completely what your saying and that's why I said, "my opinion"....I've done it, anyone whose been in the trade for any length of time has done it....and I'm confident that we agree and it is dependent on the car and the expected life span of the repair ....there is another thread on this forum right now entitled "Evercoats: Fiber Tech, Everglass, Kitty Hair, Tiger Hair, Metal to Metal", it concerns a 1968 Mustang Coupe with rust holes in the roof and the OP was wondering which product is better...I didn't want to respond to the thread but this thread has prompted me to respond.

Maybe read the thread and let me know what your opinion would be for the OP....Very often they may read another thread and think that the "bestest" way is an acceptable way, no matter what kind of car they have. My response was in more of a form of a question, which was "why not repair it properly", and I suggested that if they where on a tight budget to save their money and do it properly over time.

Again, just my thoughts.

Ray
I haven't read that thread but that is where the decision is made on a particular car or project. We were talking about in general that's all my comments were, in general.

Brian
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:18 PM
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I'm a firm believer in repairing a vehicle with what the vehicle is made off...if the vehicle is made of metal, repair it with metal....I guess that's why I haven't heard of anybody repairing a Corvette with a piece of 22 gauge steal...but that would be ridiculous, right.

Ray
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:21 PM
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I haven't read that thread but that is where the decision is made on a particular car or project. We were talking about in general that's all my comments were, in general.

Brian
To me Brian, the OP in that particular thread was looking for opinions and answers...I have know idea where he got the idea that fiberglass was the answer for him, he was wondering what was the best kind.

Ray
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2013, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS View Post
One has wax and one doesn't... That is the only difference between the two... One doesn't stick more then the other... I only use the one that doesn't have the wax....

There is two types of resin..epoxy and polyester..



Vinylester resin, Formaldehyde Resin ETC cant forget those! There is also a different coating on the glass fiber for the different types of resin your using so the resin can bond to the glass or other fibers!

No difference in the non waxing and waxing resins, There's a big difference LOL, Or there would only be one formula! Like the cheep general purpose economy resin cut rate shops use! And if your doing overhead or vertical work your large areas of woven cloth or mat would fall or slide off!

Laminating resin dries tacky! You don't sand laminating resin, Its tacky to hold your next layer in place and to aid adhesion when applying more layers and helps the Finnish coat adhere to it and the product or repair dries hard and can be sanded or prepped or jell coated!

A lot of custom parts are built using epoxy resin. The issue is efficiency and cost. Epoxy, though a superior technology, costs 2 to 3 times as much as polyester resin and it must be washed between layers,polyester laminating resin needs no prep between layers! Both Epo. and Poly. resins can be used to mold fiberglass, but polyester is more controllable by the amount of catalyst added so production time is reduced- get the finished part out of the mold and get another one started. Epoxy resin is used to make the molds that polyester resin fiberglass parts are made in though!

Epoxy molded fiberglass must also have a surface finish applied! So Polyester resins are used for this! First gel coat the mold and then the laminated layers added and out pops a shiny new part.

249 polyester resin, it drys clear as water, other polyester resins have a blue or green tint

vinyl ester resin is stronger/tougher but is not as clear so not used much with color tinting or carbon fiber.

epoxy resin is the strongest and bonds better with automotive plastics. When using it with carbon fiber it must be U.V. protected in sunlight with a good non yellowing clear. Epoxy is no good for any kind of heat and it will become rubbery at a low temp. It does resist spider cracks but isn't as flexible as polyester resin.

I can apply heat to a Corvette top, rear, front fender corner and apply pressure to get it back in position apply cold and it will stay there! you cant do that with epoxy resin parts!

Jester
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