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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2013, 04:58 PM
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yeah Ok...

Let me know when you find resin that will hold your cloth up while your working over head...

I haven't found it yet... And I do a lot of fiberglassing..

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Old 02-12-2013, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
I'm a firm believer in repairing a vehicle with what the vehicle is made off...if the vehicle is made of metal, repair it with metal....I guess that's why I haven't heard of anybody repairing a Corvette with a piece of 22 gauge steal...but that would be ridiculous, right.

Ray
I'm with you Ray, I feel the same way. I also don't believe in reproduction parts and refuse to use them unless it is the absolute last resort. But, I don't own every car in America, so to fit the owners of those cars I will do my best in aiding them. That's just how I see it. I will give advice to not do something if I feel it isn't the right way to do it, I offer the suggestion to not do it simply as advice. It's like this, depending on the car heck yes I will say DON'T DO THAT if some guy wanted to use this method on a car that should have it done right, but in just discussing methods of repair, I will toss this out there.

Brian
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:30 PM
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MAN !!!! You CAN bond it with the RIGHT stuff... I'm saying if you sand your hood and lay up FIBERGLASS AND cloth over a hole in your hood.. It WILL NOT HOLD....

There is stuff like speed grip that will hold a fiber glass part to metal.... But fiberglass layed up on metal will pop off.. What do you not understand ???
Well your saying basically if its done wrong it wont bond!!!! thats different then the absolute statement "you cant" We all agree on that I see welded patches bubling up rust under paint shortly after being repaired by some shops!!! It was lousy prep and an untrained person. It was the right way but done wrong!

I weld patches in holes and rusted areas!! Sure its right but not the only way! Hell they are gluing patch panels on now! I would have thought that crazy years ago! And Ive seen riveted patches done right that still look good 30 years later! Its ability that decides whats good or not, not the process to meet the same end desired! Fiberglass layed on fiberglass will pop off too if the right prepping isn't adhered to!

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Old 02-12-2013, 05:35 PM
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I'm with you Ray, I feel the same way. I also don't believe in reproduction parts and refuse to use them unless it is the absolute last resort. But, I don't own every car in America, so to fit the owners of those cars I will do my best in aiding them. That's just how I see it. I will give advice to not do something if I feel it isn't the right way to do it, I offer the suggestion to not do it simply as advice. It's like this, depending on the car heck yes I will say DON'T DO THAT if some guy wanted to use this method on a car that should have it done right, but in just discussing methods of repair, I will toss this out there.

Brian
We all agree on the same thing I think?

Jester
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:49 PM
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Well your saying basically if its done wrong it wont bond!!!! thats different then the absolute statement "you cant" We all agree on that I see welded patches bubling up rust under paint shortly after being repaired by some shops!!! It was lousy prep and an untrained person. It was the right way but done wrong!

I weld patches in holes and rusted areas!! Sure its right but not the only way! Hell they are gluing patch panels on now! I would have thought that crazy years ago! And Ive seen riveted patches done right that still look good 30 years later! Its ability that decides whats good or not, not the process to meet the same end desired! Fiberglass layed on fiberglass will pop off too if the right prepping isn't adhered to!

Jester
I agree.. I'm saying fiberglass layed on metal will not bond for very long.. Done right or wrong..

I'm also saying fiberglass parts can be boned to metal with the RIGHT bonding stuff,, Not resin..

I would rather see someone pop rivet,or bond a patch on then use fiberglass on metal anyday... Will hold up longer...
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS View Post
I agree.. I'm saying fiberglass layed on metal will not bond for very long.. Done right or wrong..

I'm also saying fiberglass parts can be boned to metal with the RIGHT bonding stuff,, Not resin..

I would rather see someone pop rivet,or bond a patch on then use fiberglass on metal anyday... Will hold up longer...
I see we agree LOL

I never stated you could bond fiberglass to metal with resins in any of my posts! I was only trying to make clear the different resins and materials! for young readers I do bond glass or carbon fiber to metal but its a different process then just brushing on resin and sticking them on! and like Brian I have stiffened up or made complete floors out of fiberglass or Kevlar and have filled small holes in floors after epoxying and then laying out cloth and resin! and never had a lamination let loose Except when I was young and learning!!

I like Evercoat Ive tried others but keep coming back to Evercoat!
Large overhead areas are hard by myself and messy I use rolled material (like a paper towel roll) and when the resin is tacky enough to hold the weight I roll out the material a few inches at a time and with a roller I press it down and smooth out the wrinkles The corners are the hardest I usually have to re wet them! For very large areas I use helpers! I also buy thinner mat so its not as heavy! The vertical large areas are easy with the right laminating resin! The trick is in the mix, and when you apply the mat! every day its different so I mix test pots to see what mix works best mix too hot its not as tacky! ETC

Jester
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:13 PM
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I agree.. I'm saying fiberglass layed on metal will not bond for very long.. Done right or wrong..

I'm also saying fiberglass parts can be boned to metal with the RIGHT bonding stuff,, Not resin..

I would rather see someone pop rivet,or bond a patch on then use fiberglass on metal anyday... Will hold up longer...

OK.. I'm reading this thread and you folks are getting me worried...
I applied fiberglass to the roof of my truck. I was told it was fine..
SO let me detail what I did and give me your thoughts.

I stretched the cab of the truck and it wasn't quite level,.. so we added fiberglass to fill the low spot. We did this:
Sanded the metal with 40 grit paper.
Put on epoxy primer.. sanded again with 80 grit.
Then we put on a layer of resin, a layer of fiberglass mat, resin, mat and then resin (all at once). Stuff is hard as a rock.
Then we put fiberglass out of a can on top of that to help with the small low spots (some on top of the fiberglass/resin mix, and some on bare metal), and finally bondo to make final adjustment to make it perfectly smooth.
We sanded with 40 grit between each application.

SO please tell me I'm not going to have any problems...

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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2013, 09:15 PM
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I see we agree LOL

I never stated you could bond fiberglass to metal with resins in any of my posts! I was only trying to make clear the different resins and materials! for young readers I do bond glass or carbon fiber to metal but its a different process then just brushing on resin and sticking them on! and like Brian I have stiffened up or made complete floors out of fiberglass or Kevlar and have filled small holes in floors after epoxying and then laying out cloth and resin! and never had a lamination let loose Except when I was young and learning!!

I like Evercoat Ive tried others but keep coming back to Evercoat!
Large overhead areas are hard by myself and messy I use rolled material (like a paper towel roll) and when the resin is tacky enough to hold the weight I roll out the material a few inches at a time and with a roller I press it down and smooth out the wrinkles The corners are the hardest I usually have to re wet them! For very large areas I use helpers! I also buy thinner mat so its not as heavy! The vertical large areas are easy with the right laminating resin! The trick is in the mix, and when you apply the mat! every day its different so I mix test pots to see what mix works best mix too hot its not as tacky! ETC

Jester
See... We can agree..LOL

Doing over head with fiber glass isn't fun... Believe me... And IF you put to many layers at one time,, It will end up on top of your head or lap..LOL..

People can make it stick to metal.. BUT... Like I said,, On a fool.. I'm 240 and if you step on that floor just right... It will pop off the metal... Plus for some reason.. I have seen where people covered rust holes and it rust even more... Maybe the resin does something to the metal...Don't know...


I played with glass a little.. Building this car with no mold...Here's some fenders I hand made as well..made a buck,then made a mold.then made the fenders,,,More on that in my journal..





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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2013, 10:25 PM
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I saw your journal when I first Joined Great work! I build wood molds, Plaster molds, Chicken wire cardboard and duct tape molds, Etc LOL Even take new fenders release agent lay glass on em with wood bracing pull it of and use that as a mold Carved Styrofoam and layed the glass to form custom items!

Before doing floors all holes are opened up and cleaned of rust big rust holes are patched with metal and welded, sanded to bear metal bellow and above, duct tape (the resin doesn't stick to the tape) the bottom of the floor so no resin drips or runs out, I epoxy the floor scuff and lay glass before the epoxy is no longer chemically active! I found out the resin bonds better with the epoxy or epoxy sealer while the sealer is still chemically active but dry to the touch! If the epoxy is hard the resin doesn't bond as well even if you sand it!! If it says to paint the epoxy within 72 hrs then lay the glass in the same time frame LOL! You can hit the floor with a 10# sledge and it wont damage the bond. This type of repair is quick and Ive done it for some customers because fabing the floor or cutting out all the bad metal and welding in new was cost restrictive! I did a metropolitan about 12 years ago and its just like it was when it left my shop to this day But it sees no bad weather and the metal can rust away and the glass floor will still be there! You cant just lay glass on the floor and expect a good bond

I don't know how well rust killer coatings work to stop rust I've never tried those products or have I seen any one epoxy over them!

Glassing a floor, Not the best way but another way LOL

Jester
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2013, 10:26 PM
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OK.. I'm reading this thread and you folks are getting me worried...
I applied fiberglass to the roof of my truck. I was told it was fine..
SO let me detail what I did and give me your thoughts.

I stretched the cab of the truck and it wasn't quite level,.. so we added fiberglass to fill the low spot. We did this:
Sanded the metal with 40 grit paper.
Put on epoxy primer.. sanded again with 80 grit.
Then we put on a layer of resin, a layer of fiberglass mat, resin, mat and then resin (all at once). Stuff is hard as a rock.
Then we put fiberglass out of a can on top of that to help with the small low spots (some on top of the fiberglass/resin mix, and some on bare metal), and finally bondo to make final adjustment to make it perfectly smooth.
We sanded with 40 grit between each application.

SO please tell me I'm not going to have any problems...
You seem to have done it the best way possible for using fiberglass,mainly having a solid metal base.But as stated before the 2 materials expand and contract at different rates which will try to make them work loose.The other problem is on the roof where it gets the hottest in the summer sun.If you didn't mix the resin too hot to make it build up too much heat while hardening or going off as we say it you will probably not have any trouble for a long time.Again I don't reccomend what you did,but you did it the best way for using glass on metal.Keep it out of the hot sun as much as possible and it will last the longest.As was said before,Prep is every thing.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:33 PM
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Vinylester resin, Formaldehyde Resin ETC cant forget those! There is also a different coating on the glass fiber for the different types of resin your using so the resin can bond to the glass or other fibers!

No difference in the non waxing and waxing resins, There's a big difference LOL, Or there would only be one formula! Like the cheep general purpose economy resin cut rate shops use! And if your doing overhead or vertical work your large areas of woven cloth or mat would fall or slide off!

Laminating resin dries tacky! You don't sand laminating resin, Its tacky to hold your next layer in place and to aid adhesion when applying more layers and helps the Finnish coat adhere to it and the product or repair dries hard and can be sanded or prepped or jell coated!

A lot of custom parts are built using epoxy resin. The issue is efficiency and cost. Epoxy, though a superior technology, costs 2 to 3 times as much as polyester resin and it must be washed between layers,polyester laminating resin needs no prep between layers! Both Epo. and Poly. resins can be used to mold fiberglass, but polyester is more controllable by the amount of catalyst added so production time is reduced- get the finished part out of the mold and get another one started. Epoxy resin is used to make the molds that polyester resin fiberglass parts are made in though!

Epoxy molded fiberglass must also have a surface finish applied! So Polyester resins are used for this! First gel coat the mold and then the laminated layers added and out pops a shiny new part.

249 polyester resin, it drys clear as water, other polyester resins have a blue or green tint

vinyl ester resin is stronger/tougher but is not as clear so not used much with color tinting or carbon fiber.

epoxy resin is the strongest and bonds better with automotive plastics. When using it with carbon fiber it must be U.V. protected in sunlight with a good non yellowing clear. Epoxy is no good for any kind of heat and it will become rubbery at a low temp. It does resist spider cracks but isn't as flexible as polyester resin.

I can apply heat to a Corvette top, rear, front fender corner and apply pressure to get it back in position apply cold and it will stay there! you cant do that with epoxy resin parts!

Jester
You seem to know a lot about the different resins. How about explaining Isothalic resin,I think I spelled it right.I was always taught that this was the best for making new car parts because it remains more flexible.Set me straight if I am wrong or explain it better if I am right.I have made and repaired a lot of race and street car glass parts but I am better at doing than writing.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:43 PM
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OK.. I'm reading this thread and you folks are getting me worried...
I applied fiberglass to the roof of my truck. I was told it was fine..
SO let me detail what I did and give me your thoughts.

I stretched the cab of the truck and it wasn't quite level,.. so we added fiberglass to fill the low spot. We did this:
Sanded the metal with 40 grit paper.
Put on epoxy primer.. sanded again with 80 grit.
Then we put on a layer of resin, a layer of fiberglass mat, resin, mat and then resin (all at once). Stuff is hard as a rock.
Then we put fiberglass out of a can on top of that to help with the small low spots (some on top of the fiberglass/resin mix, and some on bare metal), and finally bondo to make final adjustment to make it perfectly smooth.
We sanded with 40 grit between each application.

SO please tell me I'm not going to have any problems...
Stud guy:
I would have to be there when you applied the layers! I couldn't tell you what could have gone wrong with your process! I could only guess? I could advise you to paint it white and keep it in the shade! Or pad and vinyl the top, like they do with bad chop jobs! Sorry man I didn't even want to comment on your post If the guy that did it is a good glass man and he said it would work trust him! He must have done it before.

Jester
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:52 PM
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You seem to know a lot about the different resins. How about explaining Isothalic resin,I think I spelled it right.I was always taught that this was the best for making new car parts because it remains more flexible.Set me straight if I am wrong or explain it better if I am right.I have made and repaired a lot of race and street car glass parts but I am better at doing than writing.


Isophthalic resin I think your talking about? Its just a different product then the usually used Vinyl Ester resin when repairing boats in the top end shops!

Its like comparing the old Bondo Brand from 50 yrs. ago To the new fillers of today!

Jester





I found this so I'll copy and past! I type too slow to explain what you need LOL I"m not a Chemist LOL

"There is a big difference between isophthalic polyesters and vinylesters, worth every penny of extra cost. In any polyester, ortho- or iso-, the monomer is styrene (45% to 48% by volume usually). The polyester molecule is dissolved in the styrene. A peroxide compound, usually methyl ethyl ketone peroxide (MEKP) is used to catalyze the resin, which cross-links with some of the styrene, but not all of it. What styrene is not used in the chemical reaction flashes off, giving that fiberglassy smell, leaving microscopic holes in the laminate. It is through these holes that water passes during osmotic blistering.

Vinylester resin also uses styrene as a monomer in about the same proportions. And it also uses peroxides like MEKP as a catalyst. What is different though is that practically all of the styrene is used in the chemical reaction. Most of the styrene catalyzes with the vinylester, and the remainder crosslinks with itself, which makes polystyrene molecules within the resin. This closes off the vast majority of the microscopic holes in the resin, and this is why vinylester is so impervious to osmotic blistering. This is why chemical storage tanks, such as underground gasoline tanks, are always made with vinylester resin.

I always specify vinylester resin for blister protection and repair if the client does not want to use epoxy resin. Epoxy, by the way, is 100% solid, and therefore is the best blister barrier material."

As told by 2 big resin manufacturer tech's
"that the Iso. resins have also excellent resistance to blister. Without getting into specific manufacturers - They sell this particular Iso. as a 'matched performance system' for use with their marine gelcoat for use in 'marine' and other similar industries. This particular iso. costs as much as my gelcoat, but the V/E is about 75% more expensive, it's a DCPD modified V/E specifically for skincoats. They describe the iso. resin that if used with their gelcoat it offers a 'superior blister resistance'."

Last edited by painted jester; 02-12-2013 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by M5StudeGuy View Post
OK.. I'm reading this thread and you folks are getting me worried...
I applied fiberglass to the roof of my truck. I was told it was fine..
SO let me detail what I did and give me your thoughts.

I stretched the cab of the truck and it wasn't quite level,.. so we added fiberglass to fill the low spot. We did this:
Sanded the metal with 40 grit paper.
Put on epoxy primer.. sanded again with 80 grit.
Then we put on a layer of resin, a layer of fiberglass mat, resin, mat and then resin (all at once). Stuff is hard as a rock.
Then we put fiberglass out of a can on top of that to help with the small low spots (some on top of the fiberglass/resin mix, and some on bare metal), and finally bondo to make final adjustment to make it perfectly smooth.
We sanded with 40 grit between each application.

SO please tell me I'm not going to have any problems...

I wouldn't have done it like that...I seen where it popped off the metal over time... You might get lucky,, Then again you might not... I would say you can be ready for it to pop off one day...I hate to be the one to tell you.. And I wish I had a crystal ball to say for sure,, I would have used short strand body filler instead of fiberglass..

Another thing is.. Resin is not any good by it's self... You say you added more resin on top of it to flow it out... Resin is brittle without the chop mat... The mat is what holds it all together.. Resin by it's self will crack very easy.... When your doing fiberglass work... You want just enough resin to wet out your chop mat.. The less resin you use,, The stronger the part will be... Using more resin then you need is a big nono... Ever seen where they make custom fiberglass parts in they suck out as much resin as they can once everything is good and wet... There's a good reason behind that..Good luck with your truck..May last a while,, But it's hard to say just how long it will last..
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:37 AM
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QUOTE
People can make it stick to metal.. BUT... Like I said,, On a fool.. I'm 240 and if you step on that floor just right... It will pop off the metal... Plus for some reason.. I have seen where people covered rust holes and it rust even more... Maybe the resin does something to the metal...Don't know...


"I played with glass a little.. Building this car with no mold...Here's some fenders I hand made as well..made a buck,then made a mold.then made the fenders,,,More on that in my journal.."END QUOTE


Fabulous work Randy...pure talent, and proper use of fiberglass in the true definition of use of fiberglass. That has to be some of the best work I think I've seen. For anyone following this thread take note, this is what and how fiberglass should be used.

And M5StudeGuy, I would very much like to say that you don't have anything to worry about but as New Interiors said...I wouldn't have done it like that either, it's not the proper repair or use of the product. You may be fortunate and not have a problem for quite some time (and I sincerely hope that is the case). A lot depends on how thick and (as mentioned) how much resin you used...is it a daily driver? Where you live and temperature changes will effect the life of the repair as well. If you live in a climate where you have drastic changes in temperature the expansion and contraction differences between the metal and the fiberglass will eventually cause the fiberglass to let go. The fact that you put a coat of Epoxy primer on prior to the fiberglass will help, it'll act like a cushion for the inevitable differences in expansion and contraction. This, although different, is similar to cars that came from the factory with lacquer paint...in cold then warm climates, the lacquer paint was prone to cracking more readily than in a more stable climate.

I do have a question, where did you hear that this was a proper way of repairing your roof? The reason I ask is because I'm very cautious when I give advice on this forum for reasons just like this.

I wish you only the best.

Ray
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Skim Coating With Filler bmech211 Body - Exterior 6 05-23-2003 11:50 AM
bondo and fiberglass bruce-77346 Body - Exterior 4 05-06-2003 04:28 PM
QOTD on "Skim Coating" unstable Body - Exterior 4 03-11-2003 05:58 AM
does fiberglass with a bondo skim work better than just bondo 72chevyelcamino Body - Exterior 3 10-22-2002 03:45 AM


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