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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:38 PM
put up or shut up
 

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Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
Don't ever get into this "my teacher told me blah blah blah" BS, it's childish and not professional. These are facts and if you've been doing it...go ahead, keep on doing it...I don't care. I WON'T. My time, reputation and my customers vehicles are to valuable to me to risk it on tempting fate.

You do what ever you like but, one thing that does get me P.O.ed is when somebody gets on this forum and gives advice that can have the potential for someone who is new to this part of the hobby and make a horrific mistake....all because you said "I've never had a problem".

Only the truth.
Ray
did you not hear him say he already did it before it was even mentioned? Have you tried it and has something happened as a result? If you didn't, dont' knock it til you've tried it. I'd be more concerned about it wicking into any areas of fiberglass that may be poking up.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:46 PM
put up or shut up
 

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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
People have been doing a lot of things wrong for years, take a look at the butyl tape thread, I mounted windows for years with butyl tape, just like most everyone else, that don't make it right.

When you see failures as a rep, where you are called out to failures that could have been avoided, you learn to do the work even better. It's like the estimator who has to deliver cars to unhappy customers. If the body man or painter had to do that a while he would become MUCH better at the details. People with no experience what so ever see the flaws that a seasoned pro can miss. Believe me, that is a great education.

Brian
Have you tried it and know first hand it doesn't work? The guy who taught me this has an impeccible reputation and restores cars all across the states. I'm sure if he was doing it 'wrong' he'd know by now. This isn't to say you cake a whole care with it. You do it once every blue moon, mainly bodylines.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:57 PM
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Yes Brian, it's gratifying to know that your respected well after your gone. I still keep in touch with many of my past customers right across Canada...A major part of sales is relationship building, if you can build a sincere relationship with an employer and customers and gain their respect it snowballs.

I remember when I first became a rep for Dupont. I had a new territory, no accounts at all. On the first day my new Boss asked me how long it would take me to get an account...I asked him if he wanted me to build the business or get an account, because if he wanted an account I could have three by noon. If he wanted me to build a stable business it might take me several months to get an account...He asked me to explain...I told him that I needed to target the most respected and trusted body shop in my territory...when I felt that they had faith in me (I would know if they did because if they asked me to do something, they wouldn't ask me if they didn't have the faith that I would do it) when I do it, they begin to respect me....when I do it often enough, they trust me. When a customer trust you for your actions and ability, sales are much easier. When you target the most respected and trusted place of business as your your cornerstone, many other shops want to have what that one shop has...you.

Faith...Respect...Trust

As far as having respect for Henry's ability, not a problem, he does great work, I've read his posts and he is an intelligent, knowledgeable man. I do respect his ability.

As I mentioned in a previous post about the line "and I've never had a problem", when a potential problem exists. A technician may have never had a problem doing something a certain way...maybe because he knows how to get around it. What about the new guy who is reading through posts and picks up just enough information to cause a major problem....all because somebody with 20 years experience said "I've never had a problem". I also take offence to being compared to a Wyo Tech Kidd running around saying my teacher told me Blah, Blah, Blah. In my opinion his choice of words was poor at best and perhaps he needs to rethink them.

I'm not always right...far from it. If I'm wrong, I'll say I'm wrong, I will apologize...on the same token when I know I'm right, I try and weigh out the consequences and decide if I need to take a stand. In this case I chose to take a stand for what I feel is right.

I haven't lost any respect for Henry's ability, that is a constant, he is an excellent Technician and does have valuable information. If I wasn't in the trade I wouldn't have any problem bringing Henry a vehicle for him to restore, I know it would be in good hands.

Ray
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:06 PM
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did you not hear him say he already did it before it was even mentioned? Have you tried it and has something happened as a result? If you didn't, dont' knock it til you've tried it. I'd be more concerned about it wicking into any areas of fiberglass that may be poking up.
I read what the OP wrote...still doesn't make it right. Have I tried it...No...why would I try something that doesn't make sense in the first place. Have you ever seen what happens to paint if all of the wax and grease and grease remover hasn't dried off of a panel...like in a crack or seam? Wax and grease remover is a liquid chemical, filler acts like a sponge, how do they mix? They don't...It's the old story of if you saw your friend jumping of a bridge, would you do it? No, it's senseless, so I"m sorry Henry, I will knock it without trying it...but, I have no problem if you do it, you go ahead...have at her. It's the people that read your posts and because you say "I've never had a problem", they do it and have a problem.

Ray
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:16 PM
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Have you tried it and know first hand it doesn't work? The guy who taught me this has an impeccible reputation and restores cars all across the states. I'm sure if he was doing it 'wrong' he'd know by now. This isn't to say you cake a whole care with it. You do it once every blue moon, mainly bodylines.
Henry, this is the kinda thing like sand blasting body panels, or welding a seam through the middle of a roof it CAN be done but with one small mistake, one tiny thing that isn't made very clear by someone warning him a guy can RUIN his car.

That guy who taught you likely understands this, he likely doesn't prime a car soon after he does it (being he does restorations this is common).

There are somethings that are simply "different" and who cares which way it's done one may be better than another, but they all get it done. Then there are the things that have the potential of causing serious problems. I am going to warn the novice of those every time. And every time I get someone beating me up for warning some poor guy so at the very least he understands the ramifications of doing it wrong. This is one of those subjects, that bondo being soaked with wax and grease remover can cause catastrophic problems that would destroy all the guys hard work and cost a ton of money to repair. I am going to warn them, I think it's our responsibility to do this.

I have never made the mistake because I have never done it on a regular basis knowing it's ramifications. Just because some guy who has been doing show cars and restorations for years doesn't mean a thing. I have known a number of HUGE names in the business (not personally) by visiting their shops as a rep. Look at what big names there are around the Contra Costa county and SF bay area and you will see some HUGE names that I don't need to mention. I saw a lot of less than proper work at these shops. So just because someone has a big name and a bunch of cars out there doesn't mean they are doing things right. I remember when I worshiped guys, then I started seeing that we all are pretty much alike. We make mistakes and we need to keep our eyes open to learn so we don't make them as much.

Brian
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:25 PM
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On another forum I have a guy who has told me in confidence about a very large well known restoration shop that has a big web site who is highly spoke of on the site we meet at. He is re-doing a car that was done there with new quarters and rockers and what not installed on the car. He has described some horrendous work to me, like welding a quarter over the top of the rusted old one!

I respect the hell of the big names but also question a little bit and want to understand what they do. It isn't going to be taken as gospel just because it comes from them. This is why we want to explain things, if it makes sense then do it, if it doesn't then don't.

Brian
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:25 PM
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I see there's been a lot of post after my last one. Only use wax and grease after you have primed to check for your waves. I missed that there was no primer.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
On another forum I have a guy who has told me in confidence about a very large well known restoration shop that has a big web site who is highly spoke of on the site we meet at. He is re-doing a car that was done there with new quarters and rockers and what not installed on the car. He has described some horrendous work to me, like welding a quarter over the top of the rusted old one!

I respect the hell of the big names but also question a little bit and want to understand what they do. It isn't going to be taken as gospel just because it comes from them. This is why we want to explain things, if it makes sense then do it, if it doesn't then don't.

Brian
Very often reputations can be built on a false premise and the assumption that everything is done correctly is made. I came from an area of Canada that to me was different from where I am now. I stopped selling lacquer primmer in Western Canada over 25 years ago. I am now living in the Eastern part of the Country and at my current location numerous shops are still using it. I couldn't believe it...and their work looked good....for how long?...well, I saw a vehicle that was done in base/clear and 3 years later, it came back. The paint had sunk over the body filled areas and had several adhesion issues. I was asked to diagnose the problem and I did. I asked the shop owner why he still used lacquer primmer and he told me because of cost and speed and that if it gets out the door that's great, if it comes back, he'll worry about it then.

The shop had been past down from Grandfather, to Father, to Son and the son was living off of the reputation that his forefathers earned. He never changed with the times.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 05:37 PM
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I see there's been a lot of post after my last one. Only use wax and grease after you have primed to check for your waves. I missed that there was no primer.



Brian
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 09:27 PM
put up or shut up
 

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we need to make you guys hotrodders forum police badges. Geez, get back to work already. You don't get prizes for grandstanding on the internet, do you?
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 09:37 PM
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 09:43 PM
put up or shut up
 

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On another forum I have a guy who has told me in confidence about a very large well known restoration shop that has a big web site who is highly spoke of on the site we meet at. He is re-doing a car that was done there with new quarters and rockers and what not installed on the car. He has described some horrendous work to me, like welding a quarter over the top of the rusted old one!

I respect the hell of the big names but also question a little bit and want to understand what they do. It isn't going to be taken as gospel just because it comes from them. This is why we want to explain things, if it makes sense then do it, if it doesn't then don't.

Brian
now you're slandering.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 09:49 PM
put up or shut up
 

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Henry, this is the kinda thing like sand blasting body panels, or welding a seam through the middle of a roof it CAN be done but with one small mistake, one tiny thing that isn't made very clear by someone warning him a guy can RUIN his car.

That guy who taught you likely understands this, he likely doesn't prime a car soon after he does it (being he does restorations this is common).

There are somethings that are simply "different" and who cares which way it's done one may be better than another, but they all get it done. Then there are the things that have the potential of causing serious problems. I am going to warn the novice of those every time. And every time I get someone beating me up for warning some poor guy so at the very least he understands the ramifications of doing it wrong. This is one of those subjects, that bondo being soaked with wax and grease remover can cause catastrophic problems that would destroy all the guys hard work and cost a ton of money to repair. I am going to warn them, I think it's our responsibility to do this.

I have never made the mistake because I have never done it on a regular basis knowing it's ramifications. Just because some guy who has been doing show cars and restorations for years doesn't mean a thing. I have known a number of HUGE names in the business (not personally) by visiting their shops as a rep. Look at what big names there are around the Contra Costa county and SF bay area and you will see some HUGE names that I don't need to mention. I saw a lot of less than proper work at these shops. So just because someone has a big name and a bunch of cars out there doesn't mean they are doing things right. I remember when I worshiped guys, then I started seeing that we all are pretty much alike. We make mistakes and we need to keep our eyes open to learn so we don't make them as much.

Brian
keep in mind we had this same conversation but the roles were reversed when you said a novice should open butt weld a new quarter on. Yeah, I get 5 "being right" points!

The better you get the more you realize ANY shop other than Boyd's will take shortcuts. If I wanted to do the work I really wanted I'd be in my garage. No shop is above this but a handful.

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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2013, 07:12 AM
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Henry, most of the time you are right, you are an excellent Tech. Although I have never taught apprentices at Wyo Tech I have taught at several Colleges through out Canada. When you teach prospective body men and painters you do your best to teach them the correct way and a way that will minimize problems that they may encounter in their careers. Have I taken short cuts...without a doubt I have, anybody who says that they never have and has been in the trade for any length of time has, if they say they haven't they're lying. Has it ever bit me in the butt when I've taken these short cuts, you bet it has. I remember one time I was doing a paint job and ran out of reducer...another well respected painter told me to use another brand, he had "done it many times and never had a problem". The paint looked great, until the detail guy went to wash the car before delivery and washed the paint off. Why did this happen to me when the other painter "never had a problem" (sound familiar). It happened because I took a short cut and was to lazy to wait for the correct product to finish the job. Who took the brunt of criticism from the shop owner, I did, and rightfully so, I should have known better. Did I go run to my employer and say but "this other painter told me so", no, that's not professional...I should have known better. I fully understand that when your in the shop environment short cuts are sometimes taken, it's a fact of being in that environment. The people that are posting and asking for advice aren't in that environment, they're asking for advice, why, because they don't know and they're asking you because you have the experience and you my friend are being asked because they respect you and you're judgement. Then if this is the case, why would you give them advice that could cause problems for them? You know better, your good at what you do.

I'm not posting on here to get points for being correct...that's ludicrous. My phone rings daily, Emails by the hundreds over the past few months, all from members on this site. Do I get paid, no, am I looking for brownie points, no. Why do I do it, because when I was new to the trade many people took me under their wing and guided me, all I'm trying to do is pay back by helping the people that are interested enough to know the proper way. You mentioned in your last post that "If I wanted to do the work I really wanted I'd be in my garage. No shop is above this but a handful". You are correct in saying that No shop is above this but a handful...as I mentioned, I have taken shortcuts...it doesn't make it right and by your admission that "If I wanted to do the work I really wanted I'd be in my garage" your saying you have done things wrong as well, that's understandable, but please, don't try and get harsh with people that are pointing out errors that are made in posts...if your feelings got hurt, I'm sorry, if your ego got bruised, again I'm sorry but, I'm not going to allow what I feel to be incorrect information to be sent out their to protect anybody's ego or feelings. If your wrong, your wrong, just admit it and move on, People will think more highly of you if you admit your mistakes than if you continue to try and defend them. I know I would.

As far as Brian slandering, hardly. Slander is a dangerous word...please explain to me how he slandered and how he hurt the reputation of any shop...the definition of slander is to say something that is incorrect about a person or a business and the ramifications negatively affect them. So if Brian slandered anyone or any shop, please name them...Brian didn't.

Henry, you are an excellent Tech, you do great work...you do however have a chip on your shoulder...look in the mirror, find out which shoulder holds that chip and take it off, your life will get a lot easier. I've read many of your posts, I don't care if you are Mexican...I had respect for your ability from the first time I read your posts and thought to myself, here is a guy that knows...I didn't know your ethnic background and when I found out I didn't care...your still a great technician and even through out this discussion we are having I'm not changing my mind about your ability, as I mentioned, that's a constant...just try and take an edge off your attitude and you'll garner even more respect.

Sorry for being brutally honest...but sometimes that's what it takes. If this post offends you, well you have another shoulder to put a chip on...just don't keep adding to many chips, they get heavy after a while and can weigh you down...please take it from a guy that's been there, done that and didn't gain anything from it.

Still respect your workmanship and your ability.

Your friend...Ray

Last edited by 69 widetrack; 01-07-2013 at 07:25 AM.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2013, 07:35 AM
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now you're slandering.
I would have to mention the name to do that.

Brian
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