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Fiberglass hood blocking

17K views 70 replies 7 participants last post by  mr4speed 
#1 ·
I have spent way too many hours on this dang hood.

I am not looking to make career out of this... turning out one restoration every 5 years is not a good business plan.

65 mustang fiberglass 'shelby' hood with the steel bracing. Picked it up from Dallas Mustang. Cosmetically it was in decent shape. I scuffed with a red pad / epoxy primer / 3 coats of SPI regular 2k primer / blocked / filled low spots with poly putty / 3 more coats of SPI 2k.

I had this thing blocked out so nice... BUT, I made a rookie mistake and although I blocked it parallel to the front up to the hood scoop, I had the block parallel to the side between the side and hood scoop.

Evidently, there is a nice big dip in that area that blocked out nicely this way, but I don't think it would look good. So I spent another full day today filling and blocking. Also, you will see in the pictures that there is a little dip on either side of the scoop.

I don't know if I have a question, am just looking for constructive criticism, or just some reassurance that I am on the right track and to keep at it because one day I will be able to actually paint some color on this car. I am 4 years in... granted, I have had a child and started a new job since then... and now that I have a second boy due in April, I am feeling the pressure to get this mustang painted or I may never finish it.

http://i590.photobucket.com/albums/...9-AA78-06F7AB620958-4387-000001569DDE6093.jpg

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http://i590.photobucket.com/albums/...6-84A9-B62C47DA2ECD-4387-00000156AD83D444.jpg
 
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#2 ·
looks like low spots. Just skim it past the lows and once it's good do a final skim coat on that plane to make sure. Guide coat and hand feel will tell you. When mixing use a figure 8 motion and it's the same motion they use to make taffy...and there's a reason for it. Then spread it out on your mixing board tightly so you squeeze out the rest of the bubbles. Then skim it tight and once you do it tight go back over it lightly to soften your spreader marks. This will make the sanding less tendious, which will give you the patience to make it nice and straight. for the area next to the raised area in the middle spread it and then use the corner of your spreader( a flexible one I hope) to feather the edge of your filler. Don't be afraid to spread your second skim across the whole plane. If you spread it right there won't be much sanding and it won't be such a hassle.The lows shouldn't be that bad at this point given it's fiberglass and you already added materials to it.
 
#4 ·
I don't really use poly primers to do that. In my experience, you will always be left with something if you do that, whether it be a tweak of a reflection or a low. I have learned if you skim it really tight with a clean spread it's not so tedious and then you can save that primer to help it give you a lazer sharp look. Just my opinion and I haven't used slicksnot or slick sand or whatever you call it.

Maybe inbetween is what's best... Just do one small skim past the lows and not two skims that I suggested and THEN hit it with the poly. Win win to me. :)
 
#5 ·
Yeah, it really depends on how much you are filling, if those are real low spots you are dead on, I don't mean to use the poly primer as a "filler", that is for the bondo to do. But when you are close, to spread out filler flat enough all over that hood takes a bunch of skills where poly primer would make it very easy, IF you weren't trying to fill much.

Brian
 
#6 ·
Just a few questions...What grit of paper are you using to block the hood out with?

The reason I ask is because it looks real smooth and using a fine grit paper makes blocking to get a large panel straight very difficult.

Another question, what type of block are you using and how much pressure are you putting on the block?

If your using a small small block on a large area it can take for ever to straighten a large panel if you can get it totally straight at all...I see your using guide coat and that's excellent, when you block a panel, there should be minimal pressure put on the block, let the paper do the work. If you apply a lot of pressure, you are actually digging out the substrate, and effectively turning your block into an eraser to remove the guide coat.

From what I've read on your posts you have applied 1 coat of epoxy, putty, and 6 coats of 2K primer...that is a lot of material and just thinking about your blocking methods.

Ray
 
#7 ·
Right on the money Ray, good point you bring up.

Yep, coarser paper like 120 or even courser with the filler of course, using NEW, SHARP, QUALITY paper and changing it OFTEN is the key to what Ray is talking about.

You need to CUT the tops of the high spots off with NEW, SHARP, QUALITY paper. Not using NEW, SHARP, QUALITY paper a lot of times you "polish" the surface instead of CUTTING it flat. The sharper the paper the less pressure you have to apply. This eliminates pushing the panel down "flattening" it out as you sand. I have blocked stuff like a flexing hood where I literally hold the board off the surface so as to not apply any pressure to flex the panel.

Brian
 
#8 ·
Thanks for the affirmation Brian and I agree, keeping paper sharp is one of the keys to getting a panel even and straight. When you block on filler or 2 part putty on a panel this size you can start with a paper as course as 80 grit. Use guide coat on your filler and or putty as well. With minimal pressure on a block (I would use a long board, 16 1/2 X 2 3/4 and gently start sanding. Once the panel is relatively straight, re guide coat the panel and move up to 180 grit on the long board. Never jump more than 100 grit on body work when moving to a finer paper or the foot print left by the coarser paper will still be there. Feel the panel with the palm of your hand to ensure that it is straight (a little trick that works for me is to turn your eyes away from the panel...if you look at it when your checking, often your eyes will lie to you and tell your hand that the panel is straight). After 180 grit, I would guide coat again, I like to move to an even finer grit like 280 grit...or in some cases even with 320 grit for my body work, finish block sanding. The reason is that when I put my primer over top of 280 grit or 320 grit it has less chance of sinking into the scratches compared to 180 grit. Prime the panel allowing proper flash times between coats and give the panel 2 to 3 medium wet coats of primer. Let the primer cure properly, guide coat again, get your long block out and gently block the panel with 400 or 600 grit paper. If you have any low spots seen by the guide coat, you could possibly fill them by spot priming (depending on how deep they are) or put on a light skin of 2 part putty and re-spot prime...block out again with 400 or 600 grit...clean it up and paint it.

Damn that sound easy...LOL...it's not, it takes patience and practice...the good news is that with experience it does get easier.

Hope this helps.

Ray
 
#9 ·
Thanks for all of this info...

Re: sprayable poly... I almost bought some when I did my trunk lid. that thing had so many undulations from the steel bracing. That was a year or two ago and I did use too much pressure when I started that. I stuck with it and got it pretty flat after getting help from this forum.
I am not opposed to using spray poly, but I there have been a few 'puruists' out there that talked me in to sticking with spreadable. Also, I have seen some cars that have nice chips due to too much of it, so I am weary of doing it. It does sound so nice to be able to spray on a nice flat coat to sand off.

I finished filling all those areas that I have circled. I have not done a reflection check yet, but it does block out the guide coat now. I am afraid of that right side... it has some waves that seem to block out nice... I am attaching a video clip of the reflection prior to filling.

As far as my grits and blocks...
I am knocking down the poly putty with 180, then switching to 220 once it starts to feather. I will finish with 320 and 400 before the sealer coat.
I use Durablock. I have been using the full size 16" and the standard 11". I have done the flat surface sanding on them, so they are pretty flat. As far as pressure, I like to think that I am not putting too much pressure on the blocks. I try to put just enough to keep a good hold of it and to keep it flat against the surface. I keep my hands and fingers spread out across the block so that I do not apply too much pressure to any specific spot. And I do change the paper regularly to keep it cutting.

Here is the video.. I will do this again at some point today to see where I am now.

 
#12 ·
Yeah, that is a great trick I picked up along this journey.

It is not crazy bad, and that was another thought... At what point am I beating a dead horse? This is no show car, but I am the one doing the work, so I want it to look great. I have been trying to find pictures online of this hood to see if it has waves... I would venture to guess they all do?
 
#11 ·
That may be a little too fine a paper. When blocking something like this it is very important to CUT it flat, too fine of paper isn't going to do that. That poly putty I am assuming you mean something like "Metal Glaze" or "Glaze coat" by evercoat, a polyester putty. It really is basically regular filler that has had the talc ground finer. So sanding it with the same paper you would a regular filler is fine, so cutting it with 80 is perfectly ok. The thing is you don't want to ask urethane ("filler" primer) primer to do too much. You DO NOT want to ask urethane primer to fill 80 grit scratches. So blocking the poly putty with with 80 is ok as long as you go over it with another coat and then block that with 120 then 180 before you prime. You can prime over the 120 though we have learned in the industry that is pushing it a little. If you apply the primer in thin coats and don't bomb it on it isn't a big issue. But if you apply too heavy a coat it is all full of solvent and will shrink into the 120 scratches later.

But if you block that putty with 80 then apply a few coats of polyester primer then block that down with 120 and 180 before applying a urethane primer over that, it's basically the same as if you had primed right over poly putty, the poly primer really is about the same.

But getting back to the paper grit, doing something like that hood using a little coarser than you would typically use on a filler and first coats of primer is often needed. Because the panel flexes using a paper to CUT it flat is very important.

Brian
 
#13 ·
However, getting filler wet with wax and grease remover isn't a good idea. That filler can soak up a bunch of it, do a test. Put some wax and grease remover over a panel with a spot of filler and look at it. Let it set a bit and the filler won't remain "wet" with the wax and grease remover on the surrounding metal will. It didn't evaporate off the filler, the filler absorbed it, that is not a good thing.

I don't like the idea and personally never use it like that. No offense to you swvalon, it's just how I see it. There is nothing that causes paint product problems more than trapped solvents. Trapped solvents kicks every other cause in the butt when it comes to out and out causes for failure. So I treat solvents very seriously and letting the filler soak a little up, if only a little, is not something I am going to do. That is an old "trick" that has been going on for ever and many people do it, I just don't see a need in it.

Wax and grease remover should be wiped on wet and wiped off quickly to remove contaminates as they are suspended up in the wax and grease remover, that is how it is used.

I feel that if you can see a flaw, you can feel it. If after you block it and it feels good, apply primer, NOW you can see if there is a high or low. You don't want to do this every time, it isn't like you want to have layers of primer and filler like an autobody lasagna. :rolleyes: But the point is if you do your filler work until it feels good and apply primer, you WILL learn more and more as you go as to how to feel properly so you don't make the mistake of priming before it's ready. When you prime it, guide coat and block and when there are highs and lows that the primer can't take care of, feel it, learn to feel what these flaws feel like so next time you will feel them in the filler BEFORE you apply the primer so you can correct it before the primer is applied.

Brian
 
#15 ·
Totally makes sense on the solvents... I will heed that warning going forward.

But since I was getting these videos as you were typing that info, I will share.

Looks like I am just about done with the hood.

There is still one last low spot towards the back on the right side. The left side looks great.




Here is better detail of that low spot in the back: At least, I think that is a low spot?


Left side:


I want to thank you fellas again for the information. I am sure I will be back for more lessons later.
Tony
 
#16 ·
always good to blow it off quickly when you do the grease and wax trick. I usually only do it on a hood or deck when I'm not sure about it and it will only get primed once more. the last time I used it was on a 69 Camaro firewall bodyline. Guys were stumbling to get it done right and when I got on the task it was apparent that the boss only wanted it primed once more. It worked like a charm. Very good for bodylines, but you do gotta dry it THEN blow it off really good. Never had a problem with it messing with the paint but I'm also asking that it not be primed for a day or two.
 
#17 ·
Never had a problem with it messing with the paint but I'm also asking that it not be primed for a day or two.
That is the thing, sure it can be used, I don't, just don't like to. If you are going to it MUST be fully flashed and that is where the planets can be aligned and end up causing some big problems.

Dry guide coat is going to show the same thing in my opinion. The thing is often problems don't rear their ugly head until after the car is painted and gone. The thought of that filler soaking up the wax and grease remover gives me the hebejebees. :pain:

Brian
 
#18 ·
I think if I didn't use the grease and wax on that camaro firewall I probably would have had a little surprise, as bodylines are very difficult to get a good feel on what they'll look like without wet primer/dry primer. No guidecoat can tell you this. Better yet, we should have a damn bead roller to avoid that whole scenario to begin with. :D
 
#23 ·
People have been doing a lot of things wrong for years, take a look at the butyl tape thread, I mounted windows for years with butyl tape, just like most everyone else, that don't make it right.

When you see failures as a rep, where you are called out to failures that could have been avoided, you learn to do the work even better. It's like the estimator who has to deliver cars to unhappy customers. If the body man or painter had to do that a while he would become MUCH better at the details. People with no experience what so ever see the flaws that a seasoned pro can miss. Believe me, that is a great education.

Brian
 
#26 ·
Again Brian...so true...when you represent a product rarely does a shop call you to tell you how wonderful the product is working, your problem solving for much of the time and in most cases it's human error that you need to diplomatically correct.

The bright side of being a rep is that you do get to see all the different problems from numerous shops and many technicians and the longer you do that particular job the more you learn. I always felt that I had the benefit of learning from many people making mistakes and because of the education I got, I feel I became a better technician.

Yes Brian, if some people could walk a mile in someone else's shoes, there might be a little higher level of understanding. As I told my son when be became an engineer, I told him that I was proud of him but he had only met the minimum requirements to be an engineer and that he would would learn a lot more in the real world than he ever did in school. Life is an education, just wish more people would learn from it.
 
#24 ·
Just so everyone can sleep tonight... I will not be spraying the hood till next Sat at the earliest.. could be weeks from now even. I think most everything will be flashed out enough by then.

My initial coat of epoxy was done almost 3 years ago... At the rate I am going on this car, I should not have to worry about any shrinkage or flashing off of any of my layers.

And... no fighting in my thread! lol
 
#27 ·
It's like how I learned how hard a "salesman" works. My dad was in sales my whole life and I bought into the BS that it wasn't really "working". LOL I sure learned what a bunch of crap that was in short while! I remember being out on the road and calling him to thank him for how hard he worked to put food on his families table. It was MUCH, harder physically than working on cars every day. That includes working in the office now, it is MUCH harder physically on the body. I got clean clothes and walked from the shop into the office, I am not blowing air out of my butt. Other than a hard day on the frame rack or blocking complete cars, it is MUCH harder what I do now than hanging quarters and such. But tell that to a guy who has never worn the other hat, oh my God, you are a lying piece of crap. :D

Brian
 
#29 ·
When your in "sales" and if you want to be the best you can be, you better know your product inside and out. If you don't, you'll be eaten alive by potential and existing customers. Is it harder than working on the floor, damn straight it is, you need to be everything that you where on the floor and more. Your expected to have answers and when you don't you better get them, because the competition is right behind you with a bunch of them. If you try and BS your way through a problem and you get caught...often your done. It's not baseball where you get 3 strikes. I had a fair amount of success by saying I don't know but I'll find out compared to the rep that had a bogus answer for everything.

Ray
 
#30 ·
I have to tell you, my "numbers" where not good when I was a rep, I was blown away by other reps in sales increases each year. It had been about 8 years since I was a rep and I went to NACE in Vegas and ran into my old boss. He asked me to come back, he told me every rep who had my territory after me had to hear about me. :D He told me that he would move the guy who had my territory somewhere else and I could have it back! Can you imagine this, I was so damn proud, proud of what my dad had taught me about sales, fill the customers needs. Don't EVER sell something that the customer doesn't need. Find his need and fill it, that is what he taught me. Service, service service!

I remember a particular hard ars customer whom I sprayed in his shop while his painter when to the S-W school. I then stayed there when he came back and worked with him. The next time I visited that shop the owner ran me around to all the cars his painter had painted showing me proudly how beautiful they were. :D He was so damn happy he damn near kissed me.

And I can't stress enough here Ray, Henry is as TOP KNOTCH craftsmen as you are going to come across. We are just tossing things around here, it doesn't change my respect for him just because of this discussion. I don't need to see his work personally to know it, reading his comments tells me so.

Brian
 
#33 ·
Yes Brian, it's gratifying to know that your respected well after your gone. I still keep in touch with many of my past customers right across Canada...A major part of sales is relationship building, if you can build a sincere relationship with an employer and customers and gain their respect it snowballs.

I remember when I first became a rep for Dupont. I had a new territory, no accounts at all. On the first day my new Boss asked me how long it would take me to get an account...I asked him if he wanted me to build the business or get an account, because if he wanted an account I could have three by noon. If he wanted me to build a stable business it might take me several months to get an account...He asked me to explain...I told him that I needed to target the most respected and trusted body shop in my territory...when I felt that they had faith in me (I would know if they did because if they asked me to do something, they wouldn't ask me if they didn't have the faith that I would do it) when I do it, they begin to respect me....when I do it often enough, they trust me. When a customer trust you for your actions and ability, sales are much easier. When you target the most respected and trusted place of business as your your cornerstone, many other shops want to have what that one shop has...you.

Faith...Respect...Trust

As far as having respect for Henry's ability, not a problem, he does great work, I've read his posts and he is an intelligent, knowledgeable man. I do respect his ability.

As I mentioned in a previous post about the line "and I've never had a problem", when a potential problem exists. A technician may have never had a problem doing something a certain way...maybe because he knows how to get around it. What about the new guy who is reading through posts and picks up just enough information to cause a major problem....all because somebody with 20 years experience said "I've never had a problem". I also take offence to being compared to a Wyo Tech Kidd running around saying my teacher told me Blah, Blah, Blah. In my opinion his choice of words was poor at best and perhaps he needs to rethink them.

I'm not always right...far from it. If I'm wrong, I'll say I'm wrong, I will apologize...on the same token when I know I'm right, I try and weigh out the consequences and decide if I need to take a stand. In this case I chose to take a stand for what I feel is right.

I haven't lost any respect for Henry's ability, that is a constant, he is an excellent Technician and does have valuable information. If I wasn't in the trade I wouldn't have any problem bringing Henry a vehicle for him to restore, I know it would be in good hands.

Ray
 
#36 ·
On another forum I have a guy who has told me in confidence about a very large well known restoration shop that has a big web site who is highly spoke of on the site we meet at. He is re-doing a car that was done there with new quarters and rockers and what not installed on the car. He has described some horrendous work to me, like welding a quarter over the top of the rusted old one!

I respect the hell of the big names but also question a little bit and want to understand what they do. It isn't going to be taken as gospel just because it comes from them. This is why we want to explain things, if it makes sense then do it, if it doesn't then don't.

Brian
 
#38 ·
Very often reputations can be built on a false premise and the assumption that everything is done correctly is made. I came from an area of Canada that to me was different from where I am now. I stopped selling lacquer primmer in Western Canada over 25 years ago. I am now living in the Eastern part of the Country and at my current location numerous shops are still using it. I couldn't believe it...and their work looked good....for how long?...well, I saw a vehicle that was done in base/clear and 3 years later, it came back. The paint had sunk over the body filled areas and had several adhesion issues. I was asked to diagnose the problem and I did. I asked the shop owner why he still used lacquer primmer and he told me because of cost and speed and that if it gets out the door that's great, if it comes back, he'll worry about it then.

The shop had been past down from Grandfather, to Father, to Son and the son was living off of the reputation that his forefathers earned. He never changed with the times.
 
#44 · (Edited)
Henry, most of the time you are right, you are an excellent Tech. Although I have never taught apprentices at Wyo Tech I have taught at several Colleges through out Canada. When you teach prospective body men and painters you do your best to teach them the correct way and a way that will minimize problems that they may encounter in their careers. Have I taken short cuts...without a doubt I have, anybody who says that they never have and has been in the trade for any length of time has, if they say they haven't they're lying. Has it ever bit me in the butt when I've taken these short cuts, you bet it has. I remember one time I was doing a paint job and ran out of reducer...another well respected painter told me to use another brand, he had "done it many times and never had a problem". The paint looked great, until the detail guy went to wash the car before delivery and washed the paint off. Why did this happen to me when the other painter "never had a problem" (sound familiar). It happened because I took a short cut and was to lazy to wait for the correct product to finish the job. Who took the brunt of criticism from the shop owner, I did, and rightfully so, I should have known better. Did I go run to my employer and say but "this other painter told me so", no, that's not professional...I should have known better. I fully understand that when your in the shop environment short cuts are sometimes taken, it's a fact of being in that environment. The people that are posting and asking for advice aren't in that environment, they're asking for advice, why, because they don't know and they're asking you because you have the experience and you my friend are being asked because they respect you and you're judgement. Then if this is the case, why would you give them advice that could cause problems for them? You know better, your good at what you do.

I'm not posting on here to get points for being correct...that's ludicrous. My phone rings daily, Emails by the hundreds over the past few months, all from members on this site. Do I get paid, no, am I looking for brownie points, no. Why do I do it, because when I was new to the trade many people took me under their wing and guided me, all I'm trying to do is pay back by helping the people that are interested enough to know the proper way. You mentioned in your last post that "If I wanted to do the work I really wanted I'd be in my garage. No shop is above this but a handful". You are correct in saying that No shop is above this but a handful...as I mentioned, I have taken shortcuts...it doesn't make it right and by your admission that "If I wanted to do the work I really wanted I'd be in my garage" your saying you have done things wrong as well, that's understandable, but please, don't try and get harsh with people that are pointing out errors that are made in posts...if your feelings got hurt, I'm sorry, if your ego got bruised, again I'm sorry but, I'm not going to allow what I feel to be incorrect information to be sent out their to protect anybody's ego or feelings. If your wrong, your wrong, just admit it and move on, People will think more highly of you if you admit your mistakes than if you continue to try and defend them. I know I would.

As far as Brian slandering, hardly. Slander is a dangerous word...please explain to me how he slandered and how he hurt the reputation of any shop...the definition of slander is to say something that is incorrect about a person or a business and the ramifications negatively affect them. So if Brian slandered anyone or any shop, please name them...Brian didn't.

Henry, you are an excellent Tech, you do great work...you do however have a chip on your shoulder...look in the mirror, find out which shoulder holds that chip and take it off, your life will get a lot easier. I've read many of your posts, I don't care if you are Mexican...I had respect for your ability from the first time I read your posts and thought to myself, here is a guy that knows...I didn't know your ethnic background and when I found out I didn't care...your still a great technician and even through out this discussion we are having I'm not changing my mind about your ability, as I mentioned, that's a constant...just try and take an edge off your attitude and you'll garner even more respect.

Sorry for being brutally honest...but sometimes that's what it takes. If this post offends you, well you have another shoulder to put a chip on...just don't keep adding to many chips, they get heavy after a while and can weigh you down...please take it from a guy that's been there, done that and didn't gain anything from it.

Still respect your workmanship and your ability.

Your friend...Ray
 
#49 ·
what the hell does being Mexican have to do with anything? I actually don't like how minorities want special attention these days, but with that said, I refuse to be that Mexican in the back prepping for $10 an hour. Is that not something that goes on in the shops? Just being honest here. I have a chip on my shoulder cause I've dealt with many older folks who know a lot more than me but couldn't hold a candle to my work and I have to always be humble in the shop and "PRETEND" it's not so because that would mean getting paid more. So I just soak it in everyday at work just so I can pick their brains and go along with pretending, but I also have my ways of alerting the know nothing boss. For instance, when the boss says you work from start to finish back half he works the front half. When it comes time and I see what's wrong with the front half I will leave the front half as it is cause I never got credit for fixing it before and this I know the boss knows what he touched and what I touched, but since we're pretending here they won't ever be honest about who does what. When someone tells you you're doing something wrong with your rust work when the reality is they just want less than make it out to be you're being a rook, that doesn't bode well with me. When the other guy they think does it right doesn't do it right but thinks so cause they know no better and cause he has more experience, where is my respect, where is my thanks for only doing the rust work he can NEVER do? I go along with this pretend game only cause I like doing the cars, I like the info the old man gives, even though I have to pretend his work is as good as mine, and because I'm waiting for a better restoration shop to offer a job. I do not want to work for any other job other than a metal fab type shop. I will gladly play the pretend game over there. It's humbling, this trade.
 
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