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Old 03-18-2006, 05:32 PM
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file fit rings or std. rings

I have a 400 bored to 4.185,and I was wondering which would be the best set of rings to use?I have built many engines,and all ran great,but I was told that it would be best to file fit all the piston rings,I've always took them out of the box,and put them on the pistons.Also what is the procedure for doing this,and tools required?I want to make the most power available for this engine,but if anyone has an idea on a low friction ring to use file or std. I would appreciate it alot.I will race the car and some weekend use.The compression will be about 11.1

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Old 03-18-2006, 06:00 PM
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Have you ever checked the ring end gaps??
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Old 03-18-2006, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dboyett38666
I have a 400 bored to 4.185,and I was wondering which would be the best set of rings to use?I have built many engines,and all ran great,but I was told that it would be best to file fit all the piston rings,I've always took them out of the box,and put them on the pistons.Also what is the procedure for doing this,and tools required?I want to make the most power available for this engine,but if anyone has an idea on a low friction ring to use file or std. I would appreciate it alot.I will race the car and some weekend use.The compression will be about 11.1
If you've never used file fit , I would advise using the regular rings , If the overbore is pretty much exact the non file fit will work just as good and save you a hellava lot of time and headaches, not to mention the money!
I've used file fit on race motors and then freshened them later with non file fit and the car ran the same ET.
JMO
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Old 03-18-2006, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgcantrellsr
If you've never used file fit , I would advise using the regular rings , If the overbore is pretty much exact the non file fit will work just as good and save you a hellava lot of time and headaches, not to mention the money!
I've used file fit on race motors and then freshened them later with non file fit and the car ran the same ET.
JMO
Thanks I'll use the standard end gap,its much easier that way.I had another post about the 400 block I am building.It has 3 thousands more clearance at the bottom of the cylinder hope its all-right
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Old 03-19-2006, 03:41 AM
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i like the file fit rings i have built a few 400`s and alot of ford
file fitting rings arnt that bad about a hour longer to do the motor
youll need a fuller gauge,a ring file and thats about it
good luck with your 400
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Old 03-19-2006, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dboyett38666
Thanks I'll use the standard end gap,its much easier that way.I had another post about the 400 block I am building.It has 3 thousands more clearance at the bottom of the cylinder hope its all-right

If your cylinders are questionable in terms of roundess or straightness, I would use hastings piston rings. Do you know what grit they finished your cylinder with?
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Old 03-19-2006, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by NAIRB
If your cylinders are questionable in terms of roundess or straightness, I would use hastings piston rings. Do you know what grit they finished your cylinder with?
Not sure I will ask,and find out.Will the local part store have them,or will I have to go through jegs?Before I put the engine in I am going to do a compression test.I was told it would be fine,but I have never built a motor that had more clearance at the bottom.The bore suppose to be 4.185,and its 4.187 at the bottom 4 1/2 inches on one of the cylinders,but all the other are perfect.
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Old 03-19-2006, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazer434
i like the file fit rings i have built a few 400`s and alot of ford
file fitting rings arnt that bad about a hour longer to do the motor
youll need a fuller gauge,a ring file and thats about it
good luck with your 400
Its a small block chevy with a 4.185 bore
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Old 03-19-2006, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dboyett38666
Thanks I'll use the standard end gap,its much easier that way.I had another post about the 400 block I am building.It has 3 thousands more clearance at the bottom of the cylinder hope its all-right
Are you the same guy that had this 400 block to 2 different machine shops because the first shop screwed up the bore job? Then took it to a another shop to have it fixed? Now the bore is .003 too big at the bottom? If this is a fresh motor and just been bored it is screwed up. We bore blocks all the time and it runs out about .0002 top to bottom. .003 is way off as far as I am concerned.
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Old 03-19-2006, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM
Are you the same guy that had this 400 block to 2 different machine shops because the first shop screwed up the bore job? Then took it to a another shop to have it fixed? Now the bore is .003 too big at the bottom? If this is a fresh motor and just been bored it is screwed up. We bore blocks all the time and it runs out about .0002 top to bottom. .003 is way off as far as I am concerned.
Yea thats me,but I believe its to far at the bottom of the block to hurt,and I know it want touch the rings,and I seen blocks that have been clearanced up to as far as the low spot is in the cylinder for stroker engines,but if it is I'm sure I will find out the first pass,or the first time it cranks,and believe me I will post,and let everyone know.
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Old 03-19-2006, 10:26 AM
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You asked what is the best rings?

I prefer full-circle gapless rings.

BUT as was pointed out above, the cylinder wall finish is important to the material of the rings themselves. Things must be compatable.
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Old 03-19-2006, 10:44 AM
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I use total seal gapless ring sets on my top notch engines. I also use Speed Pro (Sealed Power), plasma moly sets that are non-file fit for certain engines.

For economy jobs and DIY type re re-ring jobs I've always used and recommended Hastings plain cast iron rings. They are the most forgiving when it comes to less than desirable cylider bores. They have alot of tension, and will conform and break in quickly and effectively. The downside to them is that they are not an ultra high mileage ring, and they are a little harder on the bores because of the tension that they have. I don't recommend that they be used with anything over a 280 grit finish. If the bore is finished with a 400 or finer grit, you need a moly type ring.

I've used alot of different types of rings with good success, so more than likely you'll be okay.

Your block is large at the bottom, which could cause some piston slap.

If you are going to go ahead with this engine, I would use cheap stuff just in case it doesn't work out, you're not out a bunch of dough on expensive parts.
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Old 03-19-2006, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIRB
I use total seal gapless ring sets on my top notch engines. I also use Speed Pro (Sealed Power), plasma moly sets that are non-file fit for certain engines.

For economy jobs and DIY type re re-ring jobs I've always used and recommended Hastings plain cast iron rings. They are the most forgiving when it comes to less than desirable cylider bores. They have alot of tension, and will conform and break in quickly and effectively. The downside to them is that they are not an ultra high mileage ring, and they are a little harder on the bores because of the tension that they have. I don't recommend that they be used with anything over a 280 grit finish. If the bore is finished with a 400 or finer grit, you need a moly type ring.

I've used alot of different types of rings with good success, so more than likely you'll be okay.

Your block is large at the bottom, which could cause some piston slap.

If you are going to go ahead with this engine, I would use cheap stuff just in case it doesn't work out, you're not out a bunch of dough on expensive parts.
Yea I think I'm going to use a hyperutectic piston,I have built alot of engines but you guys have got it down to a science,and when I find out the grit on the bore can you recommend a set of rings,Is the hone what actually puts the grit finish on the bore?
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Old 03-19-2006, 01:12 PM
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The stone that is used in the hone is what gives you your final RMS finish. A 280 grit is the minimum I would use with moly rings. Nowadays, the name of the game is to simulate an already broken in bore finish with the hone. That requires leaving a minimum of .003 of stock to be honed out. A "plateau" finish is used to help remove the microscopic peaks created by the tooling of the boring machine.

These types of stones are brush looking items, and remove very little material but leave a very smooth surface for the rings to ride on. Anyone who knows anything about internal combustion engines knows that the actual seal is created by a fine film of oil that the ring rides on. This is why achieving a smooth finish with the appropriate crosshatch is important for a really good bore and hone job. Ultimate ring seal and life is the goal.

I had been producing my own version of a plateau finish years before plateau brushes were even introduced. I always left .005" of stock to hone, and used a multi-step process of honing and cooling, and switching grits until I wound up with a 600 grit cork type stone that produced a super slick bore that had the right crosshatch and sealed up beautifully without eating up the rings.

In the real world, things don't always work that way, and we have to compromise.

I've also done alot of engines in the past with a portable hone, and re-ringed with iron hastings rings. They ran like a bandit, so you can't always argue against the budget method either.

In your case, I would probably be reaching for a $25.00 set of Hastings iron rings, and you won't have to worry about the rings failing to seat.


Brian
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Old 03-19-2006, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIRB
The stone that is used in the hone is what gives you your final RMS finish. A 280 grit is the minimum I would use with moly rings. Nowadays, the name of the game is to simulate an already broken in bore finish with the hone. That requires leaving a minimum of .003 of stock to be honed out. A "plateau" finish is used to help remove the microscopic peaks created by the tooling of the boring machine.

These types of stones are brush looking items, and remove very little material but leave a very smooth surface for the rings to ride on. Anyone who knows anything about internal combustion engines knows that the actual seal is created by a fine film of oil that the ring rides on. This is why achieving a smooth finish with the appropriate crosshatch is important for a really good bore and hone job. Ultimate ring seal and life is the goal.

I had been producing my own version of a plateau finish years before plateau brushes were even introduced. I always left .005" of stock to hone, and used a multi-step process of honing and cooling, and switching grits until I wound up with a 600 grit cork type stone that produced a super slick bore that had the right crosshatch and sealed up beautifully without eating up the rings.

In the real world, things don't always work that way, and we have to compromise.

I've also done alot of engines in the past with a portable hone, and re-ringed with iron hastings rings. They ran like a bandit, so you can't always argue against the budget method either.

In your case, I would probably be reaching for a $25.00 set of Hastings iron rings, and you won't have to worry about the rings failing to seat.


Brian
Thanks alot
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