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View Poll Results: What would you do?
I would use filler to bare metal then epoxy primer. 16 25.00%
I would epoxy primer to bare metal then use filler 48 75.00%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2005, 05:00 PM
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Barry, Martin, Baddbob, you guys have been at this for years, as well as some others responding. Including me. Filler is one of those "necessary evils" at times especially in volume shops. Truth is any quality filler, properly mixed and applied, will stick to ANY properly sanded and cleaned surface. Including OEM paint finishes. obviously some plastics and certain flex mat'ls are excluded from this idea, but we all know this to be true. Most of it is a polyester based product with all the "give and takes" that go with them. Very similar to the needs of fiberglass resin.

In the "test" at the start of this he seems somewhat amazed at the adhesion to the 180 surfaces. I'm not. There are more scratches per inch to create a mechanical bond. Anyone (including you guys) that has applied filler over painted areas, like the edge of a repair, generally feathers that mat'l with a 150 then finishes the filler to where it becomes almost transparent. In 99 out of 100 cases like this there's never a problem.

The whole epoxy thing is to emulate the OEM "E-coat" for corrosion resistance and protection during the course of the work. Common sense goes a long way in the use of all of these products. Since most of us on this board are car freaks of some type we all want the best and to have it last as long as we do. So to that end no matter what we say or do I guess this debate will go on.

I posted a pic of one of my favorite restos from the past. Nobody on here knows where I get my knowledge/opinions so I offer this one. Anyway, thanx for readin my ramble.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2005, 07:33 PM
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I agree the debate will go on, to each his own. TheHighlander, that picture sure is an example of some awesome work! Definately top notch.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2005, 07:55 PM
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Highlander,

First that is a beautiful Restoration.

Everything you say is true and this epoxy vs Filler has been an ongoing argument since about 1972-73 when the process was first introduced by Gasuirt before they were owned by BASF.

Let me say again, either way is right.
Just depends on the quality of work you want to do and how much pride you have.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2005, 09:36 AM
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Thanx for the kind words. Many ppl have opinions and ideas, I jes figured I'd post a sort of "how do I know" type thing.

The car is a 1934 Packard 1107. V12, every component restored. Multiple show winner including Pebble Beach and Meadowbrook. A "vision" made real. I have many others as well...maybe another post. Again thanx.
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Old 12-18-2005, 09:41 AM
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I Knew that car looked familiar!!!

That is where I have seen it was Meadowbrook.

I love those old Packards, Cords and Dusenberg's.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2005, 02:30 PM
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Ok Barry, so you know then...kind of the ultimate in hotrodding to do those cars. Lots of work, hard to get, at times very political. I live near Meadowbrook and showing or debuting there was always logical. Here's a couple more, all Packards, all done by my shop in the mid 90s (closed now, long story, happy ending). The woodie is a 1 off by Lebaron/Bridgeport. The Conv Sedan is a Super 8. Enjoy.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2005, 05:41 PM
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OH the woody, no the car, not mine!
Damn that thing would pay off the national debt.

I usually get to meadowbrook about three out of every four years.

Will let you know as I stay in Troy area or sometimes Holly area with relative
who has three packards.

Thanks for the pictures!
Barry
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2005, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baddbob
If you apply the filler within a week you'll be fine without scuffing, after that when the epoxy has reached full cure a simple scuff with sandpaper or a red scotchbrite is all that's needed, I've used a red scotchbrite for years. Some prefer a light scuff with 180 grit.
Hey Badbob, Looks like I'ts going to be 3 weeks before I can get back and put filler over my epoxy primer. Would a good scuff with 180 still be OK at this point?

MP
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Old 12-19-2005, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satexasf150
Hey Badbob, Looks like I'ts going to be 3 weeks before I can get back and put filler over my epoxy primer. Would a good scuff with 180 still be OK at this point?

MP
Perfect!
180 by hand and just a quick scuff.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2006, 05:56 PM
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epoxy or filler to bare metal

In my experience epoxy goes on first either self etching or or prep the metal with an etching solution and then apply the epoxy. As far as selecting a filler to use over epoxy I would make sure to use one that is chemically compatable with the epoxy and make sure that the epoxy surface has been prepped to the correct roughness to allow the filler to adhere to the surface.
If you experience problems after this then the filler is not compatable or is generally a cheaper or older technology product. Of course I live in the south
and you can literally watch a car rust right before your eyes, (after you have prepped the surface and are preparing to shoot the epoxy). This happens from just the humidity in the air.

Sincerely Tony Roland
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2006, 07:50 AM
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fat freddy

I have seen many a good paint job go bad with that epoxy junk.
I think a few years back even ppg admitted they were wrong with it.
And I have had to find a soultion.. So apon some good advice I started using K36 over prepped bare metal. and after seeing that it will lay out side in the weather for 5 years and not show any signs of breaking down, we doscovered something....
untill you sand it it is the best ever. it holds out the elemenst , and not a spec of rust formed under or through it in 5 years.. DID you read that FIVE YEARS !!!!!
So after watching my bosses cheryy white chevelle loose value , cause we followwer PPG's paint advice and used thier "NEW STUFF" we changed the way we do prep and filler work... YEP once that EPOXY started to bubble we tore whole sheets of it off the car... that os after the white paint was on.
now that is just too bad they told us,
SO now our system is to lay down a few coast of K36 and if we want some color we just add some. then we start the filler part of the project.
IF you are not familiar with K36 then chck it out,
it is a great filler sanding product.
you can do most of your metal woirk with 36 grit. and fill right over it,
It will scare you cqause you will see every scratch,
but when you start sanding, it will come up real nice. and it fills like great.
epoxy is just plain junk. and the company didn't do a darned thing when we proved it. not even offer to replace the wasted paint we had sprayed on after following every single instruction to a t.
they just said ,
YEAH well we were wrong...
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:06 PM
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Freddy, I think you did something wrong to have epoxy come off in sheets, I've never seen that happen. Anybody else?
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2006, 05:10 PM
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fat freddy

YEah DA-HUUUDE , that's what we were hopin' too we could have just kicked our selves if all we did was have a dum a-- attack , but we check our notes and followed all procedures, and this wasn't our first job , when we got a hold of the "company" they said we were right on. and changed the system,
but then we ran into a guy i had woirked with before, and he had had the same problem. HAY but we never had it on fibergalss even old vette stuff, right over raw smoothed out glass. so it was a sad day for us. and now we just go reet from bare metal to etchin' juice to K36.and that what we do.
simple and reeely right .for us.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2006, 05:34 PM
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by "PPG's new stuff" im guessing you mean 271 / 275 (think those are the numbers)

for the 5 years i worked at the dealership, we never ever once had a problem with it ...

our only paint problems actualy cause by the paint materials is like once a year we would get a bad 5 gallon drum of 1156 reducer ... but that was obvious because it would curdle the bascoat as soon as you mixed it

heck, ive got 7 yr old 271 epoxy primr on the bottom side of the intake im working on ... iits been kicked across the basement floor so many times, and theres hardly a scratch in the primer ...
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Old 03-02-2006, 06:47 PM
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My opinion (which doesn't mean its right) is it's a waste of man hours and production time to first put down the epoxy then the filler. My reasoning is that if you put the epoxy down first then the filler, you would still have to reprime the filler anyways, and more likely put sealer on top of that if your doing a good job. Where as metal, filler, epoxy, sealer.
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