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View Poll Results: What would you do?
I would use filler to bare metal then epoxy primer. 16 25.00%
I would epoxy primer to bare metal then use filler 48 75.00%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 03-21-2006, 01:18 PM
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Now that I've re-read this for at least the 3rd (or is it the 4th time), I am still confused as to which way is best. It looks like the poll says (1)epoxy, then (2) filler - Bondo or whatever then,(3) a primer-surfacer THEN (4) your paint. I didn't see that anyone was using a self etching base such as DuPont Variprime - or was that the PPG K-36 under the epoxy? Is there any thought on that.

I intend on using epoxy direct to the bare metal under my fenders and running boards as well as the floor boards, the rest of the sheet metal will have Variprime, filler, primer-surfacer then DuPont Chroma Base (the Chroma Premier is urethane/isocyanate and deadly for the "average" home user).

Any thoughts on this??

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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 03-21-2006, 01:27 PM
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I'm pretty sure Variprime then filler is a big no-no. If you want to use self-etching primer the procedure would be reversed, filler, then Variprime on the exposed metal areas, then 2K primer on top of that.
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Old 03-21-2006, 02:43 PM
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I think you are correct - Variprime has to outgas any residual acid gasses and set up for a while. Luckily I will not have much in the way of "Bondo" as the body is new (Brookville) and has a minimum number of dings - one of the few good things with this body. Will only need to Variprime the grille shell, fenders and and running boards, seal, maybe put some Icing on the dings and paint. DuPont (and probably the rest, too) seem to lack really good basic information in the tech write ups
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 04-26-2006, 12:15 PM
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boonstein

Hey guys , I am new to this page. I have been working on cars for the past 16 years. I have never seen epoxy turn loose of metal if it was prepaired right. As for the debate, it will always be there. I use filler first then epoxy. I have never had it to fail. But as some of you have stated, no mater what process you use the failures can be traced back to poor prep or mistakes. Both ways have to work because too many people do it both ways. You guys give alot of good info.
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Old 06-16-2006, 12:06 PM
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Just found this thread..

How come no one mentioned POR15?
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Old 06-16-2006, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psquare75
Just found this thread..

How come no one mentioned POR15?
Because POR-15 isn't a primer that you would want to use on an area that's going to be finish painted, as the exterior of a car. It's fine on frames and as a "under coating" but really isn't suited for exterior finish work.
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Old 06-16-2006, 05:06 PM
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They do have a specific "tie coat" which is POR15 and is able to be painted over..

Also, FWIW, I've taken POR15 and sprayed over it, and havent had any problems yet.
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Old 10-24-2008, 03:42 PM
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Epoxy/Filler

I know the info I am about to ask about is probably here, I just have not taken the time to find it guess. I am working on a 38 Pontiac and have started the firewall recondition. I have sanded all the metal applied Naval Jelly, and couple coats of epoxy primer. I am putting on filler, but when I sand down the filler I create bare metal in some places which is beginning to rust. My question to you guys is what should I do to the bare spots that I have made? Also some say to sand a spot down about a foot square work it with naval jelly. What do you do with the areas which are ready for epoxy since you usually only have time for small area at a time? (my case) Any help on this would be appreciated. Rod
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Old 03-16-2009, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR

I have seen this question brought up many times "Epoxy or bare metal?" To qualify my comments as being nonpartial, I have NEVER in my life applied epoxy prior to filler, NEVER. So I am one of the bare metal guys. Not because I think it is better, but because I have simply never had the push behind me to do it doing collision repair every day. It does take a little more time that we never seem to have.

That being said, I think it is the right way to do it (epoxy first that is) just by the science of it.

People have said, "The filler manufacturer (Evercoat for instance) says BARE METAL, they do NOT say epoxy". To which I reply "They can't endorse a brand of epoxy for fear of alienating all the other epoxy companies and they can't say ANY epoxy because there are junk products out there". It is that simple, they can't say use SPI epoxy, NO PPG, DuPont, etc jobber would have Evercoat on their shelf! They would loose BIG numbers in sales. They can't say "Any" epoxy because they would get bit by failures when people put Evercoat filler over some junk low grade epoxy and be blamed for it.

I posed these thoughts to the Evercoat guys and they agreed. A quality epoxy primer is best. They just can't put it in the tech sheets. Bare metal is "good enough" and is "safe" that is why they say it. NOW, if you look at the tech sheet for EVERCOAT polyester putties it says to apply it over "OEM Cured finishes" and "Two part primers". So they are opening the door there a little.Brian
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Old 03-16-2009, 07:20 PM
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I didn't have to read very far to see where this was going ..

Adhesion is what creates corrosion resistance ..Looks like the original poster proved it ....LACK OF ADHEASION....Let it set a year if you feel better

As I have said before ,,when the oems start using it to produce finishes on new veh ..I will use it

It was designed to seal down problem finishes (if you were not planning on stripping or in other words ,doing it correctly)

Every one is sold on the stinking word...EPOXY......

Its a band aid for proper prep ..

Does anyone Know of one oem that uses it to produce a car?.... Plenty of them are repaired before delivery ..

In 37 years I have never sanded a veh for repair & found it..Ever... I have used it on occasion when there was crap on the car to begin with ,that is what it was designed for ,a sealer

You need to stop spreading this BS to all the newbs ,or get a job in the real world of body repair..
Its a good product for what it was designed for ...Nothing more ....I'm waiting for someone to show me (prove to me )what I am missing ..I have jobbers in my shop every week ...No one is pushing the stuff (even just for profit )

Most of you deal with cars that never see the light of day ,,I have tracked cars that I have painted ,sometimes for more than 20 years , in every day use


Flame away ...
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Old 03-16-2009, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR I have seen this question brought up many times "Epoxy or bare metal?" To qualify my comments as being nonpartial, I have NEVER in my life applied epoxy prior to filler, NEVER. So I am one of the bare metal guys. Not because I think it is better, but because I have simply never had the push behind me to do it doing collision repair every day. It does take a little more time that we never seem to have. That being said, I think it is the right way to do it (epoxy first that is) just by the science of it. People have said, "The filler manufacturer (Evercoat for instance) says BARE METAL, they do NOT say epoxy". To which I reply "They can't endorse a brand of epoxy for fear of alienating all the other epoxy companies and they can't say ANY epoxy because there are junk products out there". It is that simple, they can't say use SPI epoxy, NO PPG, DuPont, etc jobber would have Evercoat on their shelf! They would loose BIG numbers in sales. They can't say "Any" epoxy because they would get bit by failures when people put Evercoat filler over some junk low grade epoxy and be blamed for it. I posed these thoughts to the Evercoat guys and they agreed. A quality epoxy primer is best. They just can't put it in the tech sheets. Bare metal is "good enough" and is "safe" that is why they say it. NOW, if you look at the tech sheet for EVERCOAT polyester putties it says to apply it over "OEM Cured finishes" and "Two part primers". So they are opening the door there a little.Brian
Your spin on what was implied .....


Nothing was implied as to it being epoxy....
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2009, 09:39 PM
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Oh boy there I hate to burst your bubble Action, but MANY OEM's have the recommendation of making repairs with epoxy over metal before filler! I am Toyota certified and they do for instance. Epoxy first over bare metal, then filler to maintain the factory warrantee.

On aluminum parts we apply epoxy before filler as recommended by all OEM manufacturers that I know of.

Epoxy is recommended over the bare aluminum on late model Vettes before bonding the SMC inner fenders on for instance.

EVERY manufacturer that I know of PREACHES, WARNS that you apply epoxy primer over bare metal in the window pinch welds before installing a urethane set window. That urethane set window is to be set ON the epoxy and NOTHING else.

Those are pretty firm recommendations from the OEM.

Brian
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Old 03-16-2009, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRod
I know the info I am about to ask about is probably here, I just have not taken the time to find it guess. I am working on a 38 Pontiac and have started the firewall recondition. I have sanded all the metal applied Naval Jelly, and couple coats of epoxy primer. I am putting on filler, but when I sand down the filler I create bare metal in some places which is beginning to rust. My question to you guys is what should I do to the bare spots that I have made? Also some say to sand a spot down about a foot square work it with naval jelly. What do you do with the areas which are ready for epoxy since you usually only have time for small area at a time? (my case) Any help on this would be appreciated. Rod

the trick there is just shoot a bit of epoxy primer on it before you leave it for any extended time..I use a small detail gun and just mix a tablespoon or so of epoxy..only takes a minute to do that and I do not have to deal with the question of rust on bare metal spots and yes it is normal when blocking to wind up with bare spots specially if the car was a bit rough to begin with..Heavens some epoxies can even be brushed on if it just a small area..

Sam
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 10-15-2011, 09:38 PM
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Just found this thread so I HAVE to reply!

My intro: I've been applying filler when filler was called lead and went through the transition to pastic fillers. As well, over the past 30 years in and out of the trade, I took a LOT of technical courses, worked with bodyshop supply companies and have both worked on the bench and managed a good many shops. I beleive my experience gives me the ability to help anyone out with this "dilemma".....

The FACT is: When 3m invented plastic fillers in the 70's, they where designed to be applied directly over metal and as the test showed - though not perfectly - , is that plastic filler adheres best to clean, ground metal. This application procedure is listed on every can of filler, as well as on their MDS sheets. If you want any kind of a product warranty, you need to adhere (no pun intended) to those directions.

Having said this, there are many environmental factors that can lead one to want to change that basic fact. The best one I read was written by OMT, where he notes that many restorations take a long time - often many years - and after stripping a body part you want to get a barrier on it ASAP so humidity doesn't settle on it causing rust to form. In the production body shop, rarely does a few minutes elapse between grinding and filling, which is, of course, the optimal scenario.

For the restorer, or in shops where the job may sit for a while, BOTH conditions can easily be met - leading to all conditions adhering to the MDS sheets and all products getting MAXIMUM adherance: Once bare metal is stripped and cleaned with Wax&Grease remover, either an epoxy primer, or self-etch and high-build primer, can be applied. The metal is now protected - however long it takes to do the metal work and apply filler. NOW, when a portion is to be filled, the primer should be ground off and then the plastic body filler applied.

Now, when the filler is sanded, much of the surrounding primer will be sanded off as well. Here it's adisable to SPOT prime with a self-etching primer (spray can). Once all the filler work is done - and all bare metal has some kind of primer on it - you can then apply your high-build product for the start of your final blocking.

I'm out. Let the naysayers have at it!

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Old 10-16-2011, 08:58 AM
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adhesion has nothing to do with corrosion resistance. polyester has adhesion but will wick moisture to the surface.

and yo call epoxy crap proves you have no knowledge what so ever on resins.
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