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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2004, 04:00 PM
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that damn firewall again

OK Randy, If this don't work I'm calling you. Kidding aside, I don't recall reading in this session anything about rapidly cooling down the spot-welded area with a damp rag or even a fan but something tells me that may not be a good idea so I thought I'd ask about it.
Also, I called the parts house and that 3-M #8115 epoxy that I mentioned yesterday costs $40. It is a dual tube affair and those )&#*^% at 3-m don't have the tubes connected with a common plunger like the more common brands of epoxy. Oh no, they want you to buy their $250 dual plunger dispenser.
I recieved the heat absorbing putty from Eastwood today and haven't even opened the box so I can't tell you anything about it yet but I will if and when I do.
Any thoughts or advice on the aggressive cooling off of spot-welds would be appreciated,
Charlie Smith

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2004, 05:16 PM
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Welding

I do not make any great claims to be a metal massager but as far as welding I have found patience is a good thing..I have found if I go at it too fast..easy to do with MIG..one gets a lot of heat into the weldment and it will warp and move..

Soo it is more a tack let it cool..tack let it cool and so on sort of deal....

Agressively cooling a weld can cause the weld to crack and we don't want that..

Sometimes using a heat sink..big chunk of copper to back the area where one is welding can help to keep the heat from traveling into the surounding metal..the deal here is to keep the heat isolated to the weld area and not let the heat travel into the panel very far..

Just my way of looking at this..
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2004, 09:10 PM
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Guys, Regarding Willys last post:
This just proves that the magazines and television have given these guys all the hype for so long that we (the general public) perceive them as being larger than life. Somehow we fail to see that there are actually much better craftsmen out there, but they rarely are mentioned. I believe Steve Moal and his crew are among the best builders ever. There was a Rides show featuring these guys, and I personally feel it was the best show of this type I've seen to date. The Coddington crew is nothing but a circus act in my opinion. Back in the early days of Hot Rods by Boyd, he had some very talented guys, Craig Naff, just to name one, who was responsible for many of the one off hot rods Boyd's shop became known for. At that time, (late 80's) Boyd had THE cutting edge shop, and had great craftsmen that had high quality standards. Having seen some of Craig's work, I doubt they used much filler back then, but times have changed and to build hot rods in todays market, I guess they think they have to compromise quality. Most of the shows I've seen regarding hot rod and custom bike building are nothing more than entertainment as I see it. The majority of the "big name" builders they have on these shows don't have a clue what real craftsmanship is all about, or they are just trying to get a project completed as fast as possible for "good tv". The episode featuring Steve Moal Coachbuilding was as real as it gets. They used absolutely no body filler on the project they were working on, as I recall, and Steve had no problems stating that they will not set deadlines to complete a project, simply because you end up compromising quality when you rush the job. Guys, I'm no different, nor any better than anyone here. I have tons to learn and look forward to doing just that each and every time I walk into my shop. I strive to be better each day, in whatever I set out to do, whether it be banging on a piece of metal, or working my regular job as a painter in a collision repair shop. I've been painting cars since I was 16, which was 18 years ago, but I still learn something new everyday, and hopefully get better at it everytime I walk into the booth. The day I stop caring about quality will be the day I quit for good. Without setting higher standards for ourselves, how will we ever be any better at any given task. I expect far more from myself than I ever have from anyone else. I'm a perfectionist, who has never, and probably will never meet that goal in anything I do. I constantly find flaws in my own work, but seldom look as closely at others work. I can look at one of my paint jobs and find what are flaws to me all day long, but others will look at it and say, "man, that's perfect."

There's no such thing!!

My constant grumbling about the use of filler is partly because I see that there are better ways, and they're not that difficult to accomplish, and partly because I see gobs of the stuff everyday, and I've seen how it's mis-used most of the time. We have a job in the shop right now that has 1/2" of body filler over the entire sides of a semi sleeper that has been stretched about 8'. This job was done by some guy in Washington St. and was completed in January of 2003. I have no clue what the final bill was, but it took the guy 6 months to do the job. It's now cracking and has severe rust between lapped layers of metal, where the joints were not proper executed, using butt weld procedures. This is just one example of the complete mis-use of the product, and sad as it may seem, the poor guy probably did the best he knew how. Unfortunately, the guy paying the bill was without his rig for 6 months, (he was told it would take two months, so he rented a place, rather than coming back home) with no income and a final bill that had to be astronomical!! Now, just a few months later, he's having it "fixed." The repair procedure is another story, but believe me, it's only a band-aid repair that will never last. Glad I didn't get stuck with the job!
Realistically though, I see many builders, who are regarded by the majority as being the best in the business, that display equally as horrid craftsmanship. I just don't get it. There are several guys out there who are doing phenominal work, but the spotlight seems to always fall, for the most part, on the guys who display equal work to that of a cut rate body shop.
I know I come off as being very opinionated. There's a reason for it. I also know that you guys are probably taking this personal. If so, do something about it. By that, I don't mean start flaming me, but rather start practicing better methods. I was using body filler myself up until about a year or two ago. But I found that I kept using less and less of it, and finally one day, it became clear to me that I didn't need it. For years I would get a panel somewhat close and slather it with body filler. Some of that work still looks good today, but most of it, even though others think it still looks great, I can tell there's filler there and I hate it! I could tell stories all night, but I've rambled long enough on this subject.
My point is, we should all strive to do better at whatever we do, whether that be metalshaping, painting or driving a garbage truck. There's always room for improvement. And yes, there are days that driving the garbage truck sounds like a great opportunity!!

Randy Ferguson
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Hi Charlie,
You can use a blow gun on your air hose to cool the weld. It will still warp some, but if you follow the directions I've posted on this site, on this and other threads, you will not have a problem. The stuff you got from Eastwood is like most of their products.....gimmicky crap!! It will not stop the panel from warping, in fact, it won't even help. The heat introduced into the metal by the welding process causes warpage and there is nothing that will stop it. Learning what to do with it AFTER the heat is introduced into the panel is the bag of tricks. If you need any further help, just ask.

Randy
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Last edited by Randy Ferguson; 08-06-2004 at 09:10 PM.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 08-06-2004, 09:30 PM
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Lol I've used the blow gun cooling trick for years, works good for me.

I also keep a few new air hoses handy. They don't work very good after a hot bead hits them. lol.

Troy

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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2004, 06:19 AM
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[ To fill the holes in the firewall, circles will need to be cut, or find a proper size plug of the right thickness and have at it. If you're lucky, and you probably will be, you can finish this off like a real pro. Learning to finish welds properly only takes a little time. There are no real tricks to it. It just takes patience. Something like filling firewall holes can be done just as fast by metalfinishing than screwing around with filler. Not to mention, it's far superior.

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*************************************************
Thats interesting, this is the first i looked at this thread as I knew I was not qualified to answer anything here.

But let me ask, on any molding holes, engine compartment for years I have taken the plasma cuter and circled or ob-longed the hole and cut a piece of metal about 1/32-1/16 " to small. I use stud gun to mount stud in middle of patch to hold to start spot weld.
Now the kicker is I fill the 1/16" gap with braze because for one
I'm not that great with a MIG and 2 I can finish the braze easier.
Normally its smooth enough when done any imperfections can be blocked out with primer.
I use to tack and fill with lead but its just not possible to find good lead anymore, so have not used it in 5-7 years.
It has always work good for me, But! Is this wrong or potential problems? Of course would never braze a newer car, but i only do older ones.

I should add, my theory on the gap instead of tight was I figure the braze would act as a shock for metal expansion? I feel if I read right you making the plug a tight fit?

Last edited by BarryK; 08-07-2004 at 08:38 AM.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2004, 09:07 AM
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Hi Barry,
Good questions.
I tend to try to get as tight a fit as possible, but a little gap wil not hurt, and in fact, some guys will purposely leave a gap as they feel they get better weld penetration. I make it a tight fir and chamfer both the patch and the original panel, just as you would a piece of plate steel. Sounds goofy, I know, but it works very well.

The problem I see with brazing is that you stand a good chance of having 'flux inclusion' which will come back to haunt you later. I'm sure we've all seen this happen, where a body man would braze in a panel, smear filler over it and in no time, it would blister up for no apparent reason, right. I've seen it many times. The culprit is flux residue left behind from the brazing process. it's possible for the flux to be embedded in the brazed joint and give you problems down the road.

The same applies to using lead. If every ounce of flux is not removed, you WILL have problems. In this case, your better off the MIG, TIG, or gas weld the panel in and if not metalfinishing it, use as little filler as you can. Body filler is a safer bet than lead in most cases.

Randy Ferguson
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2004, 09:32 AM
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Firewall holes

During this whole discussion, it has been at the back of my mind that no one has broached the subject of the under-the-hood extreme temperature fluctuations. It seems to me that the more welding and less body filler (Bondo?) the better off you'd be because of the exaggerated hot/cold environment and the much different expansion rates of the two materials.
Just a thought - any comments on this?
Charlie Smith
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2004, 11:18 AM
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Honestly, I don't feel it makes any difference at all. The underhood temp isn't going to be any more than the roof on a black car in the Walmart lot on a 110 degree day in Phoenix.

Though not using any filler would be ideal, all these products if used correctly are going to work.

The biggest issue is to use the products properly. If you were to push any of them, filler too thick, primer too thick that will create problems. It isn't so much from the difference in expansion rates it would be from shrinkage of products, mostly the primer. The polyester products aren't going to shrink enough to make a difference.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2004, 12:30 PM
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Randy - I'll keep hacking. I'm getting better w/ age but still need a little Bondo now and then!

Of all of the stuff mentioned here so far, brazed joints are the only ones that have ever given me trouble. For sure, you can almost guarantee that the paint over a brazed job wil eventually bubble. Haven't used it in a couple of decades and my problems magically went away.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2004, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by willys36@aol.com
Randy - I'll keep hacking. I'm getting better w/ age but still need a little Bondo now and then!

Of all of the stuff mentioned here so far, brazed joints are the only ones that have ever given me trouble. For sure, you can almost guarantee that the paint over a brazed job wil eventually bubble. Haven't used it in a couple of decades and my problems magically went away.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==
Lead can also quailfy as eventually bubbling, that why a lot of restorers ground out and use fiberglass (hate the thought!)

I think the problem with both is proper cleaning and epoxy.
When I braze it gets the 24 grit grinder and is normally flat so no pockets, than wax and grease remover and epoxy.
The factory lead or when I re-leaded I always hit with an 80 grit DA Used no cleaners and coat of epoxy.
I have been in shops that have had problems with both items, guess I have been lucky.
If migging a new panel on I always coat with epoxy also but never have herd of many shops have bubbling promlem there anyways.
I do know acit etch over lead, factory or new is a problem longterm for sure, not sure about braze. Barry
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