Finally a forum for me. Can anyone diagnose this problem?? - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Hotrodding Basics
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2003, 01:22 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 109
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Finally a forum for me. Can anyone diagnose this problem??

I have rebuilt the top end of my Pontiac 400. All i did was cam, intake manifold and carb ( holley DP 750). When i try to start the engine i get a loud scream of metal on metal contact. I assume that the "scream" is from the starter not engaging fully.
I would just throw a new starter on if i was sure this was the cause of my other problem. After i have the engine started< when it does start, it will run fine for about 30 seconds. In this 30 second window i advance the timing to where she sounds good. After 30 seconds the engine begins to sputter like it would if it were running out of gas, the tanks full, until the engine dies. This happens consistently. And if i can have some help figuring out this latest problem, this car would be mobile. Thanks for any replies.

    Advertisement

Last edited by Indian; 09-27-2003 at 01:36 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2003, 02:23 PM
malc's Avatar
Living At The Speed Of Life
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Espaņa Right Coast
Age: 63
Posts: 3,273
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 94
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Try;
http://www.hotrodders.com/t23503.html
"Well lat ti dah!! Does my starter...............?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2003, 02:35 PM
dmorris1200's Avatar
doesn't play well with others
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Maine
Age: 49
Posts: 1,834
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts



__________________
BUILT FORD TOUGH

Last edited by dmorris1200; 09-28-2003 at 03:53 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2003, 06:49 PM
Tazz
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: amherst,ohio
Age: 66
Posts: 2,049
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Indian, your reputation precedes you. Have you figured out why these guys are flaming you? Look for a kink in the fuel line. Look at the fuel filter for sedement and change if you see sedement. Did you change the fuel pump? Its a royal pain on a Pontiac 400 but you may need to change the fuel pump. To test the fuel pump, remove all the spark plugs then run a rubber hose from the pump to a can or jar and turn the ignition to start and let the engine turn over and see how much fuel you see in the can. Unless you have a fuel pressure gage then check the pressure while turning the engine over. Now you be nice! Tell me what you have done and what you found.




Todd




Rat Rods Rule!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 09-28-2003, 03:30 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 109
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
TM454,
My fuel lines are right in front(above) my engine, no kinks. I have a see through inline fuel filter, it fills while cranking the engine. No sedement can be seen.
While the engine is sputtering, i tried pulling the throttle open and this didnt help.
I sniffed my exhaust pipes for a smell of coolant getting in the cylinders, i thought if i had a coolant leak via manifold ports it could cause the sputter due to coolant mixing with the gas and air. No coolant in cylinders.
O.k. Heres the skinny on what ive done so far from start to present on this rebuild (top).
First i pulled the manifold, pulled the water pump and other pumps. Then i pulled the intake manifold off, lifter gallery cover also. I pulled the pushrods out, pulled the lifters out and pulled the cam after pulling the retainer plate. I replaced the cam with a mild upgrade cam. And did all of the before mentioned in reverse.
I put a new Edel. performer intake on along with a brand new 750 Holley double pumper. I put new performance stock valve springs in place of the old wore ones.
After wrestling with the HEI, i got it wired correctly and it started up. When i was breaking in the cam, the engine overheated enough to spray coolant out of the radiator.
Now i try to turn it over and the flywheel turns for a little bit and that darn metallic clank happens, with no further revolution of the flywheel.
And when the engine does start, it runs for about 30 secs. and sputters to a stop.

Last edited by Indian; 09-28-2003 at 07:11 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2003, 02:02 AM
malc's Avatar
Living At The Speed Of Life
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Espaņa Right Coast
Age: 63
Posts: 3,273
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 94
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Why are you messing around with the top of the engine,cam
etc. when you think the starter is the problem? I donīt think a
new intake and carb will cure a metal to metal contact noise.
Why put a new cam in an engine thats not running right in the first place?seems to me youīre off track completely.As for
spluttering to a stop, have you set the valves correctly?but also it is running long enough to overheat.
Solve one thing at a time and donīt change the whole setup
with a complete new top end.
You have had answers to your questions in the past and have gone off in your own way,it wonīt change by posting the same thing twice.
Is the timing correct?
Another thing, looking at your posts, how many times have you broken in this cam? seems you do it every time you start the engine.
Edit again,what engine is it? in one of your threads you stated the vacuum connection is blocked by the radiator.Funny place for a rad or funny place for a distibutor, why and how are they so close????

Last edited by malc; 09-29-2003 at 03:09 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2003, 01:58 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 109
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
This was a rebuild of the top end for more power not a rebuild to cure the metal to metal problem. The metal to metal problem arose later. Cant set my valves, as far as i know, because there non adjustable pontiac valves.
For the cooling hose being in the distributor vacuums way, im talking about the cooling line that runs from the nipple off the block thats located behind the intake manifold near the distributor.
Anyway this is all previous post things, i want to know if the metallic sound has anything to do with the sputtering til' it dies problem before i put money into a new starter.
I try suggestions then i go in my own direction.

I second thought, ignore Malcs post. His confusion of the matter will lead to yours.
I didnt rebuild because of a metallic sound (that sound was later), the cooling line is interfering with the dist. vacuum line (problem solved), I dont break in the cam everytime the engine is started (i share that i have done that) etc........

Last edited by Indian; 09-29-2003 at 01:58 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2003, 08:12 PM
stevesauto's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: texas city tx
Age: 48
Posts: 55
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
steve here when the car dies is the fuel filter still full if so when it dies with the car off look down the throught of the carb pump the accelartor a few times is there fuel squiting in the carb if not it could be a bad fuel pump or carb i know it is new but i bought 2 new ones for my car and one of them was bad does the car start right back up when it dies if not can you put a little fuel down the carb and see if it will start ps.do not look down the carb when it is running for any reason hope this helps if not let me know gonzales67@earthlink.net
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2003, 04:11 AM
Kevin45's Avatar
Just one of the guys
 

Last journal entry: Garage Toys
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Urbana, Ohio
Age: 58
Posts: 3,058
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 15 Times in 15 Posts
From August 13th

I didnt really have a chance because my portable jump starter ran down just as fuel was reaching the see-through fuel filter.
When i was cranking the engine i heard a high pitched whine. Im pretty sure i hooked the starter up right but i dont know what else it could be.
Has anyone else ran into this problem on a Pontiac engine before??


From August 14th

I got it to start. I just had to put the vacuum outlet that comes from the dist. on the right side of the coolant hose in that area.
NOW!!!
When i started it up i turned it off real quick because the engine was rocking way too much. The bendix on the starter keeps getting stuck, made a hell of a racket.
Since the starter is now on the right way (had to tighten up a "starter bracket bolt") im thinking this is whats causing the commotion. Im gonna go out and take the shims that i used before out and try to start it again. Wish me luck


From August 25th

As some of you may know, i went to break in my cam and the engine overheated considerably. I have the engine compartment all cleaned up, of anti freeze residue and fire extinguisher "dust". Although the fire was just above my oil filter and did no apparent harm i think i heard a screech when i turned the ignition off.
Upon visual inspection, what exactly am i looking for?? I know to pull the plugs and inspect but for what am i inspecting?? I will drain the oil and look for traces of water and metal flakes. This will be an accurate observation test because i had just replaced the oil pan and will wipe the receiving oil pan clean before draining. Is it normal to have some metal flakes in the oil pan??
When i crank the engine what am i listening for??
BTW i only had to walk two blocks to the bus stop. Its not a problem. Im also gonna buy a nice mountain bike this weekend to take advantage of my misfortune. As they say , make lemonade outta a lemon or in my case sweat outta tears.


From September 4th

Its like a soap opera around here. Buncha panty waists. I don't mean to be rude but come on. I click on threads and i see nothing but belly aching. I must have been misdirected to Oprahs website.
CARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCA
RSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARSCARS
CARSCARSCARSCARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


From September 20th

Yes i have on ongoing thread in the dump. Uh oh, what the hell does that mean. The regulars here make this place like a hen house. One jumps, you all jump.


Indian...what I'm getting at is that you keep asking this same stuff over and over and over. Everyone has tried to help you out, you try something, it doesn't work, you get sarcastic, you go into another thread, you ask, you get help, you may or may not answer the thread, it doesn't work, you get sarcastic, you find another thread, you ask....See a pattern here? If you only rebuilt the top of the engine and didn't do anything to the bottom then the starter is probably going bad. If you screwed with the starter then it is probably shimmed incorrectly and/or going bad. Try a new starter and put it on according to instructions. But it sounds like to me you need to take the car to a real mechanic in your hometown, tell him what you did, and have him fix it before you ruin it. For one...it is hard to diagnose something over the internet without
1. Seeing it
2. Hearing it
3. Not knowing everything you did to it.

You can't piece meal information and expect to have everyone on here fix your problem then get pi$$ed about it then repeat the routine. Sorry to sound harsh but everyone has tried. Another thing...You won't put a location in your profile. Maybe if you did someone in your area might be a member and would be willing to come over and help you out. Other than that I really don't think you are going to get your problem solved as it's been almost 2 months and over a hundred post for the same thing.

Kevin
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2003, 07:54 AM
galaxieguy3's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Gouverneur, NY
Age: 47
Posts: 170
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Indian,
1. Sounds like your starter problem is improper clearance to the flywheel requiring shim addition or removal. Very common on GM's.
2. When you get it started again, look at your fuel filter to see if it is empty or full when it stalls out.
a. If it is full, You may have to set your float levels on the Holley carb. If set too low, it can cause your problem. If set to high it will flood out after a short time. You should also try to set idle mixtures if you can keep it running.
b. If the filter is empty look at your fuel pump and lines/hoses. I am under the assumption that the car ran fine before you changed everything, if not, then check all the way back to the tank including pickup "sock" filter inside the tank. Dont just look for kinks but loose fittings or clamps, rusted lines and such that would cause air to be sucked into the fuel line on the suction side of the pump.
c. Also if you have an automatic choke on the carb, make sure that is pulling open once it starts.
d. Check for vacuum leaks.
3. As far as the distributor goes, You can easily pull it and reposition it so that it clears what ever it is hitting.
Hope this helps, Skidmark
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2003, 11:45 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 109
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The starter has been shimmed and "deshimmed" so many times, as i was thinking the same thing, i found this not to be the problem. The fuel filter is full when the car dies, i choose not to attempt to adjust the carb at this particular time because i want to keep the options, as to the problem, to a minimal. I pump gas in the carb via throttle when the car is sputtering, with no improvement. My choke is elec. I open the plate a bit before attempting to start the engine.
On the agenda for this weekend:
Im going to fiddle with the timing a little more just to rule it out again, things have a way of happening when i get tired. If i can get the engine to start again i will check vacuum connections. On the other hand im thinking i wore out the starter by trying to crank it on low voltage/amps. The thought im having is if the starters cranking for 2-3 secs and then the metallic sound occurs, the bendix may be retracting from the flywheel.
Kevin, my plans are as follows:
If i cant get this puppy licked before the Midwest freeze, i will have the car flatbedded to a local shop in the spring.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2003, 06:45 AM
galaxieguy3's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Gouverneur, NY
Age: 47
Posts: 170
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Indian,
By the sound of it, your engine is flooding causing it to stall. Sounds like you are going to have to set the float levels before you go any further. With the float levels too high it will force fuel out the main jets even with the throttle closed. Been there, done that.There are clear float bowl sight glasses available for Holley carbs to save dumping gas out the side plugs onto the engine, making float adjustment simple. If you get the floats adjusted, you then should be able to keep it running by using the throttle if it still wont idle.
Next time you are by the starter look at the ring gear on the flywheel or flex plate. the teeth may be chewed up on the edge not allowing full starter drive engagement.
As far as timing goes if it will start, you should be able to at least keep it running, even if its not running right.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2003, 12:07 PM
Kevin45's Avatar
Just one of the guys
 

Last journal entry: Garage Toys
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Urbana, Ohio
Age: 58
Posts: 3,058
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Indian...exactally where are you located and BTW how old are you. You don't have anything in your profile. Maybe someone close could come and help you out.'

Kevin
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2003, 08:23 PM
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Western NC
Age: 41
Posts: 10
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Pontiac 400

Hello,
New Guy here,I have some pontiac experince almost like you have now, I had to put a new cam/lifters in my 71 400 in my T/A,Mine had 3 lobes wore off it but any way, I've never heard of "non adjustible pontiac valves" When I installed my cam I tightened the lifters to the point I could'nt move them by hand.Then I fired it up (yes they clank like mad) then went over each one till they quit clanking, tightening each one till it got quiet and then 1/4 turn more.That's it.I would agree with galaxieguy3 that your carb sounds like it loading up bad.I would try adjusting it but is it possible the carb might be "to much for the engine"? The reason I say this is I got the biggest Q-jet I could for my 355 chevy motor, I have adjusted and adjusted it to no avail,it does run but loads up and runs very rich.I had a mechanic fella tell me the carb is to big for the engine. Now on your starter, mine also sounded rough cranking, the soulution for mine was shims.I ended up using like 2 packs I think (from advance auto in help section) I had to stack mine like 3/4" or better to mine to quiet down,I started at one set place and if it still did'nt s"sound" right, I took it off and added more. This is just my experince with my "bird" just my .02 Maybe it'll help ya.

conoverbandit
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2003, 02:09 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 109
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Today looking at my flywheel, while putting a new starter on, i saw that the front of the teeth were a little ground. It looks like they were ground from possibly the Bendix retracting prematurely. I guess if the starter and flywheel make the same sound ill get some more shims (im still waiting on my jumpstarter to charge). It just strikes me as odd that i would need more shims.

BTW,
Im 25 and live in st. louis, mo. I tried to do my age and location in my profile before but i guess it didnt take. Ill do it again now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Hotrodding Basics posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.