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Old 07-23-2003, 07:10 PM
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Fine metal in trans

I am looking for some expert advice. I recently installed a professionally rebuilt Chevy Overdrive 700R4 street/Strip trans. I flushed the radiator and trans cooler part of the radiator with flush. Then I flushed both with plenty of water. I installed new trans cooling lines, and a new 2000 Stall torque converter. There was a small amount of fine metal pieces in the pan before installation which was thoroughly cleaned before it was installed. I put brand new Dextron III trans fluid in the unit. The TV cable and an inline magnetic filter were installed. The trans was run for less than 30 minutes and shut down as the TV cable was not working properly. The pan was drained and pulled to gain access to the valve body and valve. I found a lot of metal and non metallic( possibly aluminum) pieces in the pan, filter and valve body. Any idea where the metal is from ? Was it during something done during installation ? AS always Thanks for the help.

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Old 07-23-2003, 07:39 PM
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a very small amount of meatal is normal and a thin blackish film on the bottom of the pan, if there is more than very little and they are large chunks then you might have a prob, also probably not a great idea to flush the cooler out with water and rather use solvent and air pressure, a little water can cause some damage. i would just finish putting it back together and adjust the TV cable properly and see how it performs, im assuming you put atleast one quart in the converter when u installed it and 8 quarts or so in the trans b4 u ever fired it up.
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Old 07-23-2003, 07:55 PM
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If I understand the post property. You are saying that after you cleaned the pan and flushed everything, you ran it for 30 min and then found metal in the pan again. If that is the case, I would be concerned. Running it for 30 minutes should not show any metal in the pan. As was indicated in the other response, it is best to add some fluid to the convertor before installing it. That not being done alone even should not cause that. I did transmissions for alot of years, and very seldom added fluid to the convertor before installing it. I never had any problems from that.
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Old 07-23-2003, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by adtkart
If I understand the post property. You are saying that after you cleaned the pan and flushed everything, you ran it for 30 min and then found metal in the pan again. If that is the case, I would be concerned. Running it for 30 minutes should not show any metal in the pan. As was indicated in the other response, it is best to add some fluid to the convertor before installing it. That not being done alone even should not cause that. I did transmissions for alot of years, and very seldom added fluid to the convertor before installing it. I never had any problems from that.
One time i forgot to add fluid to the converter and 2 seconds after i started it up ...blammo, looked like tinfoil confetti in the pan, i always doublecheck any more. if you dont and it survives then the you will most definately have fragments in the pan.
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Old 07-23-2003, 09:21 PM
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To clarify the original post:

After I flushed the trans cooler built into the radiator I blew it out with compressed air.

I put a quart of Dextron III in the converter before it was installed. I also put the recommended 5 quarts in the trans, started the car and then added additional quarts checking the dipstick after each quart. The manufacturer of the trans recommended calibrating the dipstick (which was also done before any fluid was added.)

Do you think it was a problem with the Trans rebuild or the installation ?

Thanks for the help

Joe

Last edited by bigjoedo; 07-23-2003 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 07-23-2003, 09:40 PM
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I`ve always had a habit of putting a quart in the converter myself.

I nave a transmission guy employed in one of my shops, he says it`s not necessary, that the pump will put it there as soon as it spins, but always put 4 or 5 quarts in before firing the engine. with the rear on stands or a lift, in gear then start adding and checking.

You should check with your builder, there should not be any metal in the pan with only 30 minutes on it.

HTH
Troy
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Old 07-23-2003, 10:52 PM
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It is just like fireing your fresh motor up without priming it, except the impeller and turbine in the converter are extremly intolerable to metal to metal contact, and have 0 embedability. not a good idea. i guess the best thing to do would be to take a magnet to it, if its steel then theres likely a problem, if its aluminum it probably not a problem.
The input shell and direct drum can scarf some aluminum off the top of the case every time you go from reverse to drive, also not all the contaminents end up in the pan imediately they can get washed into the extension housing and into the servo then get washed out later. every time you drain it pull the pan and clean it you are only cleaning the pan, there is still crap stuck in other places and when you refill it and run it again it all gets washed around again. there are only two options, take it and have it gone through again or put it in and see if it functions fine.
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Old 07-24-2003, 06:25 AM
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Well, I am going to say change the oil and try it again. It is possible that yourrebuilder did not get everthing clean, or the convertor had trash in it. I would not jump to any conclusions.

Chris
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Old 07-24-2003, 05:49 PM
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I say if there is metal in the pan after 30 minutes then you have a problem. There is no place in that transmission where anything should be scraping the case going into or out of any gear. Having rebuilt only a couple of thousand of those, I don't claim to know everything, but do know that there is ample clearance in the case for the turning pieces, so they don't scrape the case.

As for the convertor. Although it is a good idea to put fluid in it. Unless there is a problem with it already, or there is no fluid in the trans to be picked up by the pump when the engine is started, it will not destroy the before it gets oil in it. Over 10 years of doing transmissions that way, without a failure, is proof enough to me.
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Old 07-24-2003, 05:58 PM
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700 metal

Wow many post on this matter, been doing transmission's since 78 pre oiling converters many builders say this is a must or failer will result, in all my years I have never seen this happen. But more to the real question, you cant wash away the trouble you have with the metal that you have found.After you flushed the cooler lines and cooler you job is done unless you get dirt in the unit from fill tube or t/v cable. 700 are easy to stick t/v valve from dirt or fine metal, as much as your builder may tell you, take the trans back to him for re inspect see what happen. I have made more mistakes than I would like to admit to over the years but with each one there is aways a lesson to be learned, my trouble is its aways the hard way.
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Old 07-24-2003, 07:31 PM
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I haven't been building trannies since 78 but i have been building for quite some time, not trying to argue with you guys, but it does cause damage, maybe not catastrophic all the time, or even most of the time but it does cause scoring which will cause flakes, for the 10 seconds it takes to pour a court of tranny oil in there, its foolish not to, in my opinion.
I have never seen a case in my life that did not have some ruts around where the input shell rides, the drums are typically out of balance and don't spin concentrically when you first put them in motion.
I guess its all based on personal preference. I don't re-man/resell, I build for my company's fleet "gm hydromatics and ford cruisomatics" which operate PTO driven equipment 2,300 hours a year in 20 trucks, I don't cut any corners because I'm the one who has to deal with it, no 6 month 60,000 mile warranties for me, my transmissions need to last 2-3 years pushing 6000 pound trucks, i typically rebuild a powertrain every 3 years. thats roughly 300,000 miles. not too shabby, i must be doing something right.
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Old 07-25-2003, 06:03 AM
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700 metal

dozer what kinda of tranny's you been building? Yea I have seen where drum and sun shell have made contact with the inside of the case but thats not normal and I make the repair to stop the contact. Here at my shop and our 2 other shops we do everyday driver's and some street cars and we have a strip car we own and drive , I have yet to have tork failure or tranny failure from not pre oiling converter or for that matter pre soaking clutch plates. My dad taught me and my three brothers he had been doing tranny from the 50's and taught tranny school in the 60's not that means alots but over the years you learn what works and you really learn what doesn't. I have been here a short time and read all the post made but dont respond to many it makes me laugh what most people think they know but really dont know crap about what makes a tranny work the rite way. Its more than setting the cable or changing the fuild, or mogulator.
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Old 07-25-2003, 07:14 AM
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Cool

Not that I want to enter into what appears to be a urinating contest I will comment since I have been at this tranny stuff since 1974...

The company I work for builds torque converters since 1972 here in Phx. A quality reman / rebuilt converter is pre-lubed with assembly gel of the required surfaces. Be that a friction material on the lock up plates or O-rings, seals or thrust washers. At least that is the way we do it.

With that said I have always splashed a little fluid into a converter before install since I was taught that way.

I am also sure the long time trany folks are familar with what is often refer'd to as "wash-back" from a radiator tranny oil cooler. This was such a problem in the early days of the new type of overdrives that many shops replaced or by-passed the original radiator tranny oil cooler.

We bought fancy flushing machines to clean out tranny oil coolers. We installed magnetic inline oil filters. You guys know the routine that was used if you were there. We were trying to avoid troubles with sticky valve bodies and other troubles.

Now back to the original post. IF there is a good amount of metal in the pan after a short run time I would recomend a recheck of everything.

Also I am bothered by reading where "water" was also used to flush out the cooler system for the tranny. Water has NO place in there!

Time for a story from a middleaged mechanic..... About 15-18 years ago, I was in a NAPA store. A guy was purchasing A/C parts ( compressor, dryer , etc)..... He then SAYS " Several guys say I need to flush the system out. Do you have an attachment to hook up a garden hose to the A/C system?"

I laughed so hard I nearly pee'd my pants.

Tony
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Old 07-25-2003, 09:49 AM
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To clarify the original post:

After I flushed the trans cooler built into the radiator WITH CLEANER ONLY I blew it out with compressed air. I did flush only the radiator with water

I put a quart of Dextron III in the converter before it was installed. I also put the recommended 5 quarts in the trans, started the car and then added additional quarts checking the dipstick after each quart. The manufacturer of the trans recommended calibrating the dipstick (which was also done before any fluid was added.)

Do you think it was a problem with the Trans rebuild or the installation ?

Thanks for the help

Joe
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Old 07-25-2003, 06:41 PM
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I would say there is a definate problem with the rebuild if everything was flushed as you say. The thing needs to be looked at, either by the one that rebuilt it or someone else. It will be a problem for sure otherwise.

As far as parts scraping on the case on the inside. If they are, there is a problem. Most likely the marks being seen on everyone, are actually the rough machineing done for clearance.

Crosley... When you got started was a great time. We were just getting the lock-ups on the road. The manufacturers didn't even know what to do with them. The Chrysler and AMC products with the TF 727 and 904 had such problems that they actually completely plugged the coolers. We even had one removed and cut open to see what the problem was. We also added secondary coolers to give them more to have to plug up. Atlease we didn't have many burn them selves up. They would kill the engine when put in reverse unless you reved them up. Then they broke the reverse bands! Then GM started with the TH200 that no one knew about all of the different valve body plates and gaskets. We replaced them with TH350's for the local dealers.

Things have changed over the years, but one thing has stayed the same. There are still people that think that anyone with some wrenches can do anything on a car. And alot of people still think that just installing a rebuild kit in a transmission means that it will work.

This is just my opinion. Anyone don't like it too bad.
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