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Old 02-20-2012, 02:10 PM
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Finishing off the 383 build

posted in here before but have more questions. Building a 383 stroker for a 69 camaro street car.

Specs so far are:
-4.030 bore
KB 18cc pistons
5.7 rod
235/249 5.22/.509 107 lsa at .050

things to decide still:
heads (what cc)
head gasket thickness
intake
carburetor

what thickness head gasket should i use and should i have the block decked? and if so to what height? whats a good compression ratio to shoot for 91 octane gas. Want this motor to be a stout little 383 for the street. And what would be the max rpm you would spin this to?

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Old 02-20-2012, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06-z0sick
posted in here before but have more questions. Building a 383 stroker for a 69 camaro street car.

Specs so far are:
-4.030 bore
KB 18cc pistons
5.7 rod
235/249 5.22/.509 107 lsa at .050

things to decide still:
heads (what cc)
head gasket thickness
intake
carburetor

what thickness head gasket should i use and should i have the block decked? and if so to what height? whats a good compression ratio to shoot for 91 octane gas. Want this motor to be a stout little 383 for the street. And what would be the max rpm you would spin this to?
With the 18 cc dish piston, hopefully a D dish, a stock crown to deck clearance of .025 inch and a .015 shim gasket and having pistons with the stock pin to crown compression height of 1.56 inch, this would have a Static Compression Ratio (SCR) of 9.46 to 1 with a 64cc chamber head such as the Vortec or its many aftermarket clones. With a 76 cc chamber you'd be looking at 8.56 to 1 with otherwise the same combination of parts and dimensions.

If you zero decked it and went with a .040 thick gasket the numbers would be the same. .040 is pretty much the magic distance for optimizing squish/quench on a street engine. D dish pistons or flat tops are needed to complement that distance, circular dish pistons diminish the effect making the engine more detonation prone for any octane fuel.

Aluminum heads of a similar configuration to Vortecs can run around 10 to 1 static because of their faster heat transfer rate.

What you need is to compute the Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) which means you need to publish either the camshaft's part number so we can look up the timing card, or you need to tell us when the intake closes in crankshaft degrees so the DCR can be calculated. This is quite a bit of cam and the original Vortec heads would require some additional guide, rocker studs, and perhaps spring seat work, which makes looking to GMPP or the aftermarket attractive.

Bogie
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:51 PM
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Thanks Bogie,

Calculated DCR is 7.330, what does this mean in terms of how it will run on pump gas and street manners?

Also i calculated with a .025 deck height and a .028 compressed head gasket squish would be at .053. From what I've read .038-.045 is a good place to shoot for the street. If i leave the block at stock deck height would .053 squish be too high for the street? what are the cons of being outside the recommended range of squish?

And the pistons are keith black D-Cup
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:11 AM
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bump for more help
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06-z0sick
Calculated DCR is 7.330, what does this mean in terms of how it will run on pump gas and street manners?
Destined to be a pooch, or as my late friend used to say, "a weak-suck operation". Shoot for a target DCR of 8.00:1 to 8.50:1 for a motor that has to operate on pump gas.

Let me see if I can help you understand what's going on in the motor. Let's concentrate on the closing point of the intake valve. It closes on the compression stroke, after bottom dead center of the piston (ABDC). A juggling act takes place as you try to coordinate the rising of the piston in the bore and the closing of the intake valve. Compression cannot begin until the intake valve is on its seat, so we try to leave the valve open as long as possible to take advantage of the inertia of the intake slug to "pack" the cylinder with fuel/air mixture. If we close the valve too early, we may make too much cylinder pressure for the fuel and cause detonation. If we close it too late, some of the mixture that has been pulled into the cylinder (actually, it's atmospheric pressure that pushes the intake slug into the cylinder) will be pushed back out of the cylinder, through the "still open" intake valve by the piston that's coming up the bore. This happens at low rpm's, before the motor is "up on the cam". As revs increase, the motor gets into a rev range where everything works together and you make power. That's why you'll see a rev range of efficiency included with cam specs. Let's say that the spec says the cam will operate from 3000 to 6500. Below 3000, the motor is not up on the cam and it's very inefficient, pushing fuel/air mixture back up the intake tract to be seen as a "fog" hanging above the carburetor. As you increase revs and get closer to the lower operating range of the cam (3000 in this case we're discussing), the ball of fog above the carb goes away and you begin making real power. So, how do we use a cam on the street that makes power from 3000 to 7000? Use a looser converter, so that when you mat the throttle, the motor comes up to the stall point of the converter and you are making and applying power at the low end of the operating range of the cam.

That's where the DCR calculator comes into play. It helps us to tailor the closing point of the intake valve to arrive at the results that we want from the motor. Building an efficient motor requires math and the sooner you get wrapped around it, the better engine builder you'll be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06-z0sick
Also i calculated with a .025 deck height and a .028 compressed head gasket squish would be at .053. From what I've read .038-.045 is a good place to shoot for the street. If i leave the block at stock deck height would .053 squish be too high for the street? what are the cons of being outside the recommended range of squish?
If you had the DCR correct and had a generous squish pad on the piston crown, I don't think I'd worry too much about a squish of 0.053". What I would worry about is the validity of the main bearing bore and the block deck heights on all four corners of the block.

Have your machine shop check the mains. If they're out of spec, have them align-honed or align-bored back to spec. Then, bolt the block down on the main bearing saddle and cut the block decks to square. How much do you cut? Well, you determine that by the stack of parts that you will use. Let's say you have a 1.433" piston, a 5.700" rod and a crank radius of 1.875". The stack in this case would be 9.008", so you would want to cut the block decks to a 9.008" block deck height is you wanted to use those parts at zero deck. Then you could use an 0.039", 0.040" or 0.041" gasket to set the squish. Cutting the block decks has the additional advantage of equalizing the cylinder volumes, so that all 8 of them will be closer to the same static compression ratio. And....
the block will be square so that the heads bolt down parallel with the main saddle bore and the intake manifold will sit flush on the heads with no internal leaks from the crankcase to the intake ports.

Now, you guys can use any numbers you want to, as long as you pay attention to the static compression ratio, dynamic compression ratio, closing point of the intake valve, low range of the cam and the converter stall. Remember also, as the cam gets wilder, you'll need more gear.
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Old 02-21-2012, 03:48 PM
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thanks again tech inspector. Okay i think i got everything down pat I'm going to have the block cleaned up and set at a deck height that will work with a head gasket to achieve the desired squish. Now for DCR to make sure i calculated it correctly the intake closes 69* ABDC at 0.006 lift. Is tat correct or should the valve timing for intake valve closing point be measured at .050?

And in order to raise DCR do you raise SCR? What is the max SCR for 91 octane street motor? Lets say between decking block thinning head gasket and heads to bump DCR to the 8.0:1 range my SCR would go up to around 10:1. IIRC this may be too high for iron heads and cause problems as well? Whats your suggestion to be close to the suggested numbers?
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:18 PM
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So heres my calculations tell me if i will be okay

Cylinder Head Volume 64cc
Piston Head Volume 18cc
Gasket Thickness .030"
Gasket Bore 4.060"
Cylinder Bore 4.030"
Deck Clearance .015"
Stroke 3.750"
Rod Length 5.7"
Intake Closing Point ABDC 69* at 0.006 lift

STATIC COMPRESSION - 9.57:1
DYNAMIC COMPRESSION - 7.45:1

With a stack height of 9.008 and a deck height of .015 and a .030 head gasket i believe this would yield me a .037" squish, correct?

Is this where i want to be?

Last edited by 06-z0sick; 02-21-2012 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06-z0sick
Now for DCR to make sure i calculated it correctly the intake closes 69* ABDC at 0.006 lift. Is tat correct or should the valve timing for intake valve closing point be measured at .050?
The DCR calculator that I have used for years is the one on the Keith Black piston site. It uses 0.050" duration plus 15 degrees. Other calculators may require different input and give different output. I don't know about them, I have, like I said, used only the KB calc for years. I know from the experience of myself and others who have relied on it, that 8.0-8.5 is a range that will work on pump gas. You cannot convert 0.006" duration to 0.050" duration directly, as the ramps are generally different from one grind to another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06-z0sick
And in order to raise DCR do you raise SCR?
You can raise DCR by raising the SCR, by closing the intake valve earlier, shortening the rod length or lengthening the stroke.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 06-z0sick
What is the max SCR for 91 octane street motor?
Not answerable. DCR is what tells the tale. I've seen fellows run 11.0:1 with iron heads on pump gas with no detonation, but they had cleaned up all the sharp surfaces on the piston crowns and in the chambers and paid attention to the DCR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06-z0sick
Lets say between decking block thinning head gasket and heads to bump DCR to the 8.0:1 range my SCR would go up to around 10:1.
Not necessarily. You simply build for whatever SCR you want and then cam the motor for the correct DCR by juggling the intake valve closing point.

I strongly suggest that you go to KB's site and play with the DCR calculator.
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Old 02-21-2012, 08:03 PM
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tech inspector that was the site i was using to fool around with numbers. check out the numbers i posted above, i think this is the closest i can get with this cam, i don't know what to think anymore, kind of feeling lost with all this stuff i ordered. Block is bare right now so want to get as close as possible. Whats your suggestion i do with the stuff i have?
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06-z0sick
So heres my calculations tell me if i will be okay
Cylinder Head Volume 64cc
Piston Head Volume 18cc
Gasket Thickness .030"
Gasket Bore 4.060"
Cylinder Bore 4.030"
Deck Clearance .015"
Stroke 3.750"
Rod Length 5.7"
Intake Closing Point ABDC 69* at 0.006 lift
STATIC COMPRESSION - 9.57:1
DYNAMIC COMPRESSION - 7.45:1
With a stack height of 9.008 and a deck height of .015 and a .030 head gasket i believe this would yield me a .037" squish, correct?
Is this where i want to be?
First, let's get you some understanding of terms, I think you may be a little confused.

BLOCK DECK HEIGHT- measurement from the centerline of the main bearing bore to the block deck where the heads bolt on. This measurement is usually published as 9.025" on a virgin block. In reality, it may or may not be 9.025" because of factory variances and also because you are probably not the first owner of this block and you have no idea what the previous owners did or did not do to it.

PISTON DECK HEIGHT- measurement from the crown of the piston to the block deck where the heads bolt on, with the piston at top dead center. We do not know what this measurement is because we have not measured the block deck height. We know the stack will be 9.008", but cannot figure anything else until you measure....or have your machinist measure.... the block deck height.

SQUISH...the sum of piston deck height and compressed head gasket thickness. (example, 0.005" piston deck height plus 0.039" compressed gasket thickness = 0.044" squish.

We know that with 64cc heads, your static compression ratio will be approximately 9.7:1, because that's what KB tells us it will be.

What we do not know is the duration of the intake cam lobe @0.050" tappet lift. You need to know that to figure the DCR on the calculator. We do not need to know the exhaust because it is not part of the formula. Find that and plug it into the calculator after adding 15 to it. (example, cam intake duration @ 0.050" tappet lift = 35. Add 15 to that and enter 50.000 into the calculator.

Give me the part number and mfg of the camshaft and I'll provide the intake closing point @0.050".

Do not despair young man. This is a minor glitch and we'll help you work it out. All is not lost.

Richard
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:03 AM
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Thanks Richard I really appreciate it. The camshaft is comp cams 08-601-8 hyrdraulic roller.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06-z0sick
Thanks Bogie,

Calculated DCR is 7.330, what does this mean in terms of how it will run on pump gas and street manners?

Also i calculated with a .025 deck height and a .028 compressed head gasket squish would be at .053. From what I've read .038-.045 is a good place to shoot for the street. If i leave the block at stock deck height would .053 squish be too high for the street? what are the cons of being outside the recommended range of squish?

And the pistons are keith black D-Cup
I wrote a lengthy reply last night, then pushed the wrong button and blew it up so here?s another try at a response.

For the street I used to accept a squish/quench of .040 to .060; the high side being enough conservatism to allow long term build up of carbon. But these newer fuels do a lot to scrub deposits out so I?ve been trending back toward .040. But .053 will work well, certainly a lot better than what the factory puts in with circular dish pistons. The D dish works a lot like a flat top because the close clearance between the far side step and that of the head it pushes the mixture out from the far side toward the spark plug. This is squish, it breaks up globules of fuel into much smaller parts, mixes them with the air, then concentrates the homogenized mixture in front of the spark plug. This increases the density before the plug and provides a fine dispersion of the fuel in the air both of which result in a faster burn that requires less spark advance while making a more complete burn which gets both power and mileage out of the fuel you're paying for.

The quench function is a means of preventing the fuel mixture on the far side of the chamber from spontaneously igniting before the flame front gets there. The far side of the chamber sees the increasing temperature and pressure of the burn before the flame front arrives, so when the auto-ignition or fire point is achieved which is only about 540 degrees for gasoline where it goes off with a bang. What?s happening with the quench function is that there is a small volume of mixture trapped between a lot of surface area, this sinks the heat out of the mixture keeping it under the fire point until the flame front arrives.

For a street engine staying around .040 as a minimum clearance is both effective from squish/quench stand point while over the long haul of wearing parts is sufficient to keep the piston from striking the head as it rocks about its pin taking up the cylinder wall to piston skirt clearance. Race engines often go tighter because they don?t go many miles between checks and overhauls so pushing the dimensional rocking limit is less likely to cause a problem. The tighter the squish/quench the more the fuel acts like it has a higher octane rating than it does. At .040 it acts like it has another 4 to 6 octane points depending upon the blend, at .060 it will act like 2 to 4 points higher beyond that it falls to nothing almost instantly. This leads into the subject of compression ratio.

Compression Ratio needs to be optimized for the camshaft used, there are other concerns, but this one is plenty to deal with and is central to a highly efficient engine that optimizes power output and fuel mileage. This is expressed a Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) which is a ratio of power made against fuel burned. The aircraft engine guys have always been on top of this to maximize engine power, flight range and minimize fuel cost. Car guys have over the decades played around BSCF simply because it?s easier for them to transfer fuel cost to the end user because the end user doesn?t have range and payload issues, at least not knowingly. The Federal government with emissions and mileage goals changed all that in recent decades. However, back when 100 plus leaded fuels became available in the late 1950?s there was a trend on large grocery getter V8s to run the compression up against fairly modest cam timing as a means of improving mileage in these large engines. The same thing was done in performance engines with aggressive cam timing and lift but the reason here is to recover bottom and mid RPM performance otherwise lost to reverse pumping mixture back into the intake. This reduces the density present in the cylinder which slows the burn which costs power, adds operational roughness, increases pollutants of HC and CO, makes it hard to time optimum cylinder pressure with piston position. So upping the compression ratio increases the pressure density which speeds the burn extracting more power from the available mixture, makes timing best pressure and piston position easier reduces the unburnt HCs and CO but has the backside effect of increasing NOx. Overall these are many of the concerns that are the essence of the idea behind the Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR).

The DCR for a cast iron head should be at least 8 to 1. My basic scale is 8 for regular fuel and 8.5 for premium; for aluminum 8.5 for regular and 9.0 for premium. This assumes a quench in the range of .040 to .060 inch, D dish or flat top pistons along with a Ricardo fast burn type chamber such as the Chevy Vortec, Chrysler Magnum, or Fort GT40 style head or aftermarket types of these heads. These heads feature a spark plug located toward the center of the chamber reducing burn distance, thus time, they pay attention to introducing swirl and managing the wet flow as the mixture passes the valve into the cylinder, and they usually include a substantial amount of squish/quench step as a proportion of total bore area with a beak that divides the intake from the exhaust valve reducing the contamination one does to the other. When using older heads open chamber or first generation SMOG era heads I back those numbers off a half ratio especially with circular dish pistons. For the second generation SMOG era heads like the Chevy L98 and the Swirl Port or the older still pre SMOG era heads with tight 64cc chambers, I back these off about .2 to 1. The DCR can be pushed higher by reducing the squish/quench clearance, adding Singh grooves and other tricks but for a daily driver these things either lead to risky long term clearance issues or into things that over time will plug up with carbon and cease function.

When you read the popular press often you see comments or charts that show for an engine of a given configuration that raising the compression ratio with no other changes doesn?t appreciably change power output. What tends to go unstated is that the DCR is close to optimum with the cam and ignition timing being used. What is often missed is that when the compression ratio is not optimized for the cam considerable power from idle into the upper reaches of the middle RPM band is lost as is a lot of cruise fuel efficiency. So for a street engine, especially a daily driver, getting this right has large benefits to power and efficiency. That isn?t to say one shouldn?t strive for this in a competition engine either. However, the cautionary tale in this is that you don?t want so much compression that it forces a less than optimal use of ignition advance. Having to dial the timing back a few degrees from optimum will cost more than missing the compression ratio by half a point. For a motor in the range 4.060 inch bore or less with a fast-burn type head with good squish/quench one will typically see that 34 to 36 degrees total advance produces the best power. For a similar engine with open chamber heads often 38 to 42 degrees produces the best result, but it?s less, often a lot less than with the fast-burn style head. There?s a 20 to 40 a foot pounds and horsepower, or more, game going on in subtle combustion chamber shape changes between these heads.

The story here is that the cam, the combustion chamber, the piston crown shape all work together to determine the best compression ratio for the fuel to be used. There are considerable differences in fuels and their resistance to changing their advertised octane rating with differences in pressure and temperature. It?s not all the same; different brands use different chemistry in their fuel blends so while they may all exhibit a similar octane on standardized tests the actual resistance to detonation can vary quite a bit with in-service situations. This subject is worth a book by itself so suffice to say that you just have to try different brands of fuel to see which ones function the best in your engine.

The bottom line is I'd like to see your DCR come up to 8:1. Roughly with your cam I'd be looking for a static ratio of 10.5. but given your hardware choices I don't see any way of getting there. With a .015 head gasket you could get 9.67 SCR.

Bogie
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Old 02-22-2012, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06-z0sick
Thanks Richard I really appreciate it. The camshaft is comp cams 08-601-8 hyrdraulic roller.
Your stack is 9.008". Cut the block deck height to 9.008 (zero piston deck height). Use Fel-Pro 1003 head gasket (4.166" x 0.041", 9.1 cc's). That will put your static compression ratio at 9.60:1 with 64 cc heads. Using the 08-601-8 cam will put your dynamic compression ratio at 8.27:1 with the cam installed straight up, neither advanced nor retarded. Advancing the cam 2 degrees upon installation will yield 8.37:1 and advancing it 4 degrees will yield 8.46:1.

The 1003 gasket will work on both iron and aluminum heads.

Here are the specs on the cam....
Intake centerline 102* ATDC
Exhaust centerline 112* BTDC
Intake opens 15.5* BTDC @0.050" tappet lift
Intake closes 39.5* ABDC @0.050" tappet lift
Exhaust opens 56.5* BBDC @0.050" tappet lift
Exhaust closes 12.5* ATDC @0.050" tappet lift

See there, everything turned out just lovely, don't you think? This combo should make a rumpety-rump motor with lots of power. Use a loose converter, 2500-3000 stall.

Last edited by techinspector1; 02-22-2012 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 02-22-2012, 03:38 PM
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Look at that! Richard your my hero, you taught me so much already about building an engines and I'm sure thats not even scratching the surface. I appreciate you helping me out with this build with the components i have! i will let you know how it turns out when i get er up and running!

Thanks again!
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