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Old 11-26-2004, 01:39 AM
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ford and firing order questions

i am doing some pro-bono work on a 94 Mustang GT that some genius decided to throw a junkyard 351w into. Supposedly an 84 351 but everything is suspect at this point. Since this is a firing order thread, I'll get to that first. Those that feel like reading on can do so. The vehicle is running rough like it is missing a cylinder, but I have changed everything from the rotor to the spark plugs and the coil. I have checked for spark at the ends of all the new wires, and the vacuum on the carburetor is within normal range with a 1Hg fluctuation at idle (typical of ignition problems from what I understand). Compression is low but even across all cylinders, 100-110psi. #1 TDC on power stroke was verified during the compression test and corresponded with the rotor position on the number 1 wire. However, I have found that the location of the #1 wire on the distribotor does not correspond to any ford literature I have found. On the vehicle, the #1 wire sits at about 10 oclock if the firewall is 12 and the radiator is 6. Then it progresses CC in the firing order 13726548. Every piece of ford literature I have come across shows #1 at about 1 o'clock. I had always thought that it wouldn't matter as long as #1 spark coincides with TDC and the firing order was correct. At least in theory any way. I guess what I'm asking is if I missed something in my thinking. Should I pull the distributor(an MSD Ready-to-run), which might be bad since I don't know how to diagnose it, and rotate it to the correct position in all the diagrams or should it not matter as long as my timing is correct? I also tried the alternate ford firing order of 15426378 just out of desperation and it ran sooooooo smooth for about a second and a half before it backfired through the carburetor. There went that idea. So...imbue me with your ignition knowledge on this matter. I don't think I missed any information, but feel free to ask. Your expertise and any suggestions are very welcome at this point.

Ok, on top of just the ignition problems, I would like to actually identify the motor in the car. When I picked up spark plugs for an 84 351w (told them I had an F150), on two separate occasions, they gave me spark plugs that would not fit the engine in the vehicle. I had to bring the plugs I had into PepBoys and they used a crossreference sheet to give me new ones but couldn't tell me what engines or cars that corresponded with. They did tell me the 351w and 302 use the same shape of plugs, the only variance would be the heat range. So now, I would like to know what engine actually is in the car because now that I think about it, there is nothing that actually confirms that it's a 351 except someone else's word. I have worked on imports my entire life so I couldn't tell one domestic engine from another. Help here about the location of a casting number, engine code, or engine vin location would be very helpful. If you need a picture of the engine, just email me and I'll send one over. As for the spark plugs, the ones on the car are a 1/4" longer between the thread and fat part of the plug. The only other thing I noticed was funny was that the #2 piston was up at the same time the #1 piston was. I don't know if this is abnormal or not, but 4cyl engine usually have #2 and #3 moving together. I hope you guys can answer my problems so I can get this gorilla off my back. I thank you in advance for your time and efforts.

Regards,
Jun

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Old 11-26-2004, 10:05 PM
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First I'd check the engine for casting numbers on any part you can find, preferably the on the block but any will work...

I know that on the 302 block there is supposed to be a casting number located where the starter bolts up to the bell housing. Removal of the starter is necessary to see the number. (don't know how desperate you still are with this car)

Here is a decoder and help site for fords,
only looked through breefly though, looks helpful.

http://www.gearheadracing.com/Refere...ingNumbers.htm


Good luck,
Eric
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Old 11-26-2004, 11:35 PM
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You can have #1 anywhere. The only thing you need to do is make sure it fires at TDC.

100-110 is way too low. Did you tighten the rocker arms too much? If they are the torque down type, did you have the heads machined?

The 351 has a wider intake manifold. The 302 is pretty narrow.
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Old 11-27-2004, 12:12 AM
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Arrow

The 5.0L uses the old 289/302 firing order 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8

The 5.0L HO uses the 351W firing order 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

So actually, the firing order on either (if it actually is a 351W) is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.

In 1975, spark plug size went from 18mm to 14mm, so that may explain the size difference. Also pre-1976 351W had sixteen intake hold down bolts.

I would arrange the firing order to where it belongs to at the least help the next guy that comes along.

(And this is assuming the new engine is carbed and the FI was not retained).
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Old 11-27-2004, 03:47 AM
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firing order

#1 spark plug wire goes on the terminal just to the left of the rear cap clip. The rotor should be in that position when #1 cylinder is TDC on compression stroke, and the rotor turns counter clockwise. You can put #1 anywhere you want it as long as the rest of the firing order is correct and the rotor is in the correct positon.

Corrrection: # 1 spark plug wire goes on the terminal just to the right of the rear cap clip. Sorry about that, wasnt watching what I was typing.

When you look at the timing cover, the water inlet ports from the pump are right even with the bottom of the heads on a 302, and the head is a little over an inch and a third above that spot. The 302 has an 8.2 inch deck height and 351 is 9.5 inch.

Last edited by Max Keith; 11-27-2004 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 11-27-2004, 07:59 AM
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sounds like you have a blown head gasket between cylinders
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Old 11-27-2004, 08:21 AM
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302 or 351

As a rule, 302's and 351's have all used the same spark plug, depending on year whether they were 18 MM or 14 MM. I think it was in 78, when they went to the peanut plugs on all Ford engines. The 302 and 351's were the last ones to go to the smaller plug.
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Old 11-27-2004, 11:23 PM
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Yeah, I had heard about the casting number behind the starter on the 302s but I didn't know if that applied to all years or to the 351s.

As for the compression, I didn't do anything inside the engine at all. Just took the valve covers off to change the gaskets. I wouldn't even know to tighten down the rockers arms properly. My first Ford, remem? I don't think the head gasket is blown between cyl because I did my compression test with all spark plugs out and they all came up 100-110 across the board. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Kultulz, good call. Yeah I guess that would suggest that the engine I have is from before 1978 or 1975. Jeez, that would suck. I'll go back to pepboys and have them pull a 1975 351w plug and see if it matches up. I'll also count the bolts that hold the intake manifold to the block and see if they are 16. How many do the later models have?

Thanks everyone for the ignition advice. I knew it sounded good in theory, but sometimes I tend to overthink problems and miss something obvious. I'll leave it as is for now until I can get the car smooth. Unless anyone thinks it has a remote chance of causing my problems. Also, if anyone wants a small video of the engine running so you can see and hear it, just let me know where to adjust the idle speed and I'll send one over. I'm not even sure how the engine is supposed to sound normally so I can't describe the engine as loping, missing, or whatever. I'm not even sure what idle rpm this engine is happy at for setting my idle mixture. Please advise.

Jun
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Old 11-28-2004, 12:22 AM
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351 Intakes

The later intakes have 12 bolts, 6 to a side.
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