First start trouble - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:58 AM
carlk4728's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 17
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
First start trouble

I have a 454 that I put a new cam and timing chain set in and now Im having trouble getting it to start. When I turn it over it backfires here and there but wont run. Im 99% sure its timed right; when both of the #1 cylinder valves are closed the piston is at TDC and I have the rotor pointing to number 1 on the cap. When I installed the cam and timing chain set I followed the instructions from Edelbrock, and lined up the dot on the cam sprocket with the one on the crank sprocket.

Any ideas? I know the cables and plugs are good, the firing order is correct, and shes getting gas no problem. My only thought is that I screwed up while setting the zero valve lash. Is it possible that theyre too tight and would that cause the problem Im experiencing? Thanks in advance for the help.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 09:02 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlk4728 View Post
I have a 454 that I put a new cam and timing chain set in and now Im having trouble getting it to start. When I turn it over it backfires here and there but wont run. Im 99% sure its timed right; when both of the #1 cylinder valves are closed the piston is at TDC and I have the rotor pointing to number 1 on the cap. When I installed the cam and timing chain set I followed the instructions from Edelbrock, and lined up the dot on the cam sprocket with the one on the crank sprocket.

Any ideas? I know the cables and plugs are good, the firing order is correct, and shes getting gas no problem. My only thought is that I screwed up while setting the zero valve lash. Is it possible that theyre too tight and would that cause the problem Im experiencing? Thanks in advance for the help.
Is it a solid lifter cam or hydraulic?
I would double check your timing and make sure you are at top dead center and not 180 degrees out. Remove the number one spark plug, put you finger in the hole, turn the motor over until the compression blows your finger out the hole. Then turn over by hand until your mark lines up to 8 degrees should start
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 09:09 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The 2 other things are an intake valve is open, to tight or yor firing order is wrong 18436572 clockwise, what i do when it is at top dead center I install the distributor towards the carburator and that will be #1 and work from there in the firing order
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 09:12 AM
hcompton's Avatar
Old & Furious
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: MD
Age: 41
Posts: 1,074
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 87 Times in 84 Posts
if they are too tight and all of them are stock open. But very unlikely.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 09:36 AM
carlk4728's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 17
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
It's a flat tappet cam with hydraulic lifters. If both the intake and exhaust valves for the #1 cylinder are closed and the #1 piston is at the top of the cylinder that should be TDC, right?

I think I might just loosen all the rockers a little and see where it goes. A friend of mine thinks that the rockers are applying more pressure now that the lifters are filled with oil which is causing the valves to stay partially open when they're supposed to be closed. I'm skeptical though, and I did soak the lifters in oil for about a week before I installed them (and moved them around to try and get all the air out).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 10:05 AM
RWENUTS's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Nanaimo, BC, Canada
Age: 63
Posts: 1,978
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 57
Thanked 211 Times in 199 Posts
Try this first. Put your #1 plug wire on #6 and hook up the rest of the wires. I think you're 180* out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:14 PM
455olds's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Baker City,OR
Posts: 406
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 8
Thanked 51 Times in 49 Posts
I agree. Did you line up the cam and crank dots and install the distributor? If you did not turn the engine from that point and installed to #1 then you ARE 180 out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:27 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hopewell, Va
Age: 62
Posts: 1,203
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 117 Times in 113 Posts
First start trouble

When the instructions say line the crank gear dot at 12:00 and the cam gear at 6:00 the engine is ready to fire on #6. You can install the distributor with the rotor pointing to #6 plug wire. Or you turn the crank 1 revolution and you will have the crank gear at 12:00 and the cam gear at 12:00. This is when you install the distributor with the rotor pointing to # 1 plug wire.

Last edited by cdminter59; 01-08-2013 at 07:32 PM. Reason: spelling correction
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 09:13 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlk4728 View Post
I have a 454 that I put a new cam and timing chain set in and now Im having trouble getting it to start. When I turn it over it backfires here and there but wont run. Im 99% sure its timed right; when both of the #1 cylinder valves are closed the piston is at TDC and I have the rotor pointing to number 1 on the cap. When I installed the cam and timing chain set I followed the instructions from Edelbrock, and lined up the dot on the cam sprocket with the one on the crank sprocket.

Any ideas? I know the cables and plugs are good, the firing order is correct, and shes getting gas no problem. My only thought is that I screwed up while setting the zero valve lash. Is it possible that theyre too tight and would that cause the problem Im experiencing? Thanks in advance for the help.
Here are a couple pages that should help:
Adjust lifters
First start up

Good luck.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 10:38 PM
techinspector1's Avatar
Senior Curmudgeon
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hemet, California, USA
Age: 72
Posts: 12,946
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 760
Thanked 1,012 Times in 848 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlk4728 View Post
It's a flat tappet cam with hydraulic lifters. If both the intake and exhaust valves for the #1 cylinder are closed and the #1 piston is at the top of the cylinder that should be TDC, right?

I think I might just loosen all the rockers a little and see where it goes. A friend of mine thinks that the rockers are applying more pressure now that the lifters are filled with oil which is causing the valves to stay partially open when they're supposed to be closed.
I agree with your friend that the valves are being held off their seats, particularly if you used the "spin the pushrod" method of finding zero lash. That method will almost always end up with the valves too tight, particularly with fellows who do a motor now and then, not everyday for a living.

Remove the valve covers. This following procedure can be done with the spark plugs in place, but the motor will turn over easierIf you and stay where you put it if you pull all the plugs. If you pull all the plugs, there will not be a piston on the compression stroke trying to twist the crank backwards. With the proper tool attached to the harmonic damper or crank snout, turn the crank until you reach TDC on #1 piston WITH BOTH VALVES CLOSED. Remember, there are 720 degrees in a complete cycle, so the piston comes to the top of the bore twice in one cycle. Only one of those times though, are both valves closed.

Loosen the rocker nuts on the intake and exhaust for #1 until the rocker arms are loose. Have a helper hold the exhaust rocker tip (first rocker from the radiator) down against the valve tip and hold it there. Arm yourself with a ratchet, extension and the proper socket for tightening down the rocker nuts in one hand, use the other hand to reach back and "jiggle" the pushrod up and down. Use the socket to tighten the nut down while you jiggle the pushrod with the other hand. Your helper will still have the rocker tip held down against the valve tip and will not let up until you get to zero lash (no more room to jiggle the pushrod up and down). Give the nut 1/2 turn to set the preload and repeat the procedure for the #1 intake valve (second valve from the radiator).

When you have the valves adjusted for #1, go to the front of the motor and give the crank 1/4 turn (like 15 minutes on an analog clock face). This will put #8 piston at TDC on the firing cycle. Loosen both rockers and repeat the procedure that you did on #1. When through with both valves there, turn the crank another 1/4 turn and adjust #4 cylinder.

Each 1/4 turn of the crank will put you on the next cylinder to fire, so just follow the firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 until you have completed the drill with 2 complete revolutions of the crank. (actually, it will be 1 3/4 revolutions, but I don't want to confuse you).

Bulletproof the operation by using a VERY strong light to look down through the pushrod holes in the head to make sure that the pushrod is in the center of the lifter cup and not up on the side of the cup at the snap ring.

Last edited by techinspector1; 01-08-2013 at 10:48 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2013, 07:28 AM
carlk4728's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 17
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
OK so last night I had enough time to change the plug wires so that they're 180 degrees off, but it sounds pretty much the same; a couple backfires here and there but still no run.

I'm going to try and loosen the rockers tonight or tomorrow using techinspector1's method. This is the first motor I built and I did use the "spin the pushrod" method...

Thanks for the help everyone I'll let you know how it goes!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2013, 12:34 PM
carlk4728's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 17
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well on Saturday after working on her for a bit a friend of mine stopped over to give me a hand. We used a compression gauge to test the number 6 cylinder and found 0psi compression . Looks like I'm gonna be adjusting the cam to crank timing this weekend...

Thanks for the help everyone! I'll reply once more when I get the beast started.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
sbc 350 will start run rough for a few seconds die and wont start fuel-junky Engine 11 01-08-2013 11:30 AM
Ford 302 hot start trouble grafter12 Engine 3 04-29-2011 04:29 PM
Trouble trying to start engine for the first time. Z-Money Pit Engine 8 10-29-2009 09:02 PM
Easy cold start, hard hot start dedub Engine 34 08-13-2008 05:21 PM
change modular car will start shut off and won't start back up Ramman Engine 1 11-26-2004 08:20 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.