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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2011, 09:57 AM
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with stock manifolds and smaller (stock) size carb

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2011, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1972scoutII
Thanks BigED for taking the time to write that up its really good info.

I just sold my old engine to a guy who is going to give it some love and put it in his rat rod, the non drilled for accessory heads will give it the older look he is after.

So now that I have no core its either the GM crate of something rebuilt by someone already that changed their mind

As much as I want a specialized engine, I think that the universal is best bet, Its shame they charge so much extra for just a cam upgrade
I have to agree with you on the up-charge for a cam upgrade, but I can understand why it's so much. The long blocks are coming with the factory cam. Then Pace or Sallee has to supply the replacement cams and pay their techs to install them.

In my opinion, GMPP really missed the boat with the 350/290HP upgrade to the "Universal 350", for a couple of reasons. #1:-The ONLY part that's different in the 2 engines is the camshaft, yet the 290HP version sells for $400-$500 above the price of the "Universal 350". There's no way it costs anywhere near $400 more to have that cam ground! #2 is the cam they chose. The 350/290HP cam is the same cam they used in the old 327/350HP engine. It's designed for an engine with 11:1 compression. I've read a number of reports that guys really aren't happy with their street performance because the bottom end just isn't there in the 350/290 because of the 8.5:1 compression ratio. I believe a much better choice would have been to use the cam used in the 350HO and the CT350/350 circle track engines. It's basically the 350ci/350HP cam with .015 lift and 10* duration taken off the intake lobe. A design much more compatible with the lower compression of the new engines. And that is the combo that Pace is using in their Pace Pac 350/300 engine. The 350/285 combo from Sallee uses a little less cam, it's the specs that many consider an RV or pickup cam. About .030" more lift and 10* more duration than stock, and it's a very good compromise. Still gives great low end torque, but adds enough lift and duration to free up the top end breathing. These are very popular cams, and with good reason. Thinking about this thread, I suspect your Scout has low enough gearing that either would have plenty of low end torque, especially in "4wd-low", and the extra top end would sure be nice on the highway. What GMPP needs to come out with is the "Universal 350" short block with Vortec heads and the 350HO cam, basically an "old school" 350HO, ready to drop in and bolt up to all the "stuff" we already have!

I notice in your 2nd results for stock manifolds and carb the intake is listed as a single plane instead of a dual plane. I think that is sacrificing some low end from that result. A dual plane will give much better low end driveability than a single plane.

Here's something else to consider. After looking thru the warranty info on the Goodwrench engines it looks like your warranty would only be for 12 mos/12,000 miles PARTS ONLY for a "non-cataloged" installation (like in a Scout).

1972scout, you can give me he** for this if you like, but...........to further muddy the waters.....................there's the 1996 - 2000 Vortec 350 for $1995.95 at Pace. This gets you the 1 piece rear main seal block with ROLLER CAM setup and Vortec heads! You would need a Vortec intake, an electric fuel pump, and a new flywheel or flexplate, otherwise it's a "drop-in". They were rated at 255HP from the factory with Vortec fuel injection (compared to the 200HP for the 350 TBI and the 195 that GM gives for the Universal 350 net hp rating). If you decide to upgrade cams after the warranty expires you just buy a new roller cam, won't need new lifters. However, the factory Vortec heads won't let you go over about .460" lift unless you modify them by having the guides machined or go to bee hive style valve springs.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2011, 12:46 PM
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I wish this was an easier decision. I guess what I want isnt what most people are looking for.

I put the sing plane on the dyno to see if I could match the Pace performance figure of 300hp.

I assume they are buying long blocks and then heads, then adding the cam, but I could be wrong.

I have struggled over and over with the vortec swap. I have just purchased a new SFI flywheel, and have a brand new edlebrock intake already. Its hard to re-purchase vortec ones and sell the ones I have at used prices. If I was starting from scratch I would go the vortec route.

I really dont want to go back and put in a new cam after the warranty is out. Unlike most hot rods I just want a motor that I can forget about once its in (not adding or upgrading parts), spending time and money on lockers etc.

for 1989.00 to my door with an intake its pretty appealing. just trying to justify the 400 dollar upcharge to maintain a parts only warranty. I might be better off getting the universal crate and just swapping he cam first thing. I assume I could reuse the lifters and get a cam for 125. In the end it saves me 300, but I lose the warranty. And I have to buy gaskets, drop the oil pan etc

Last edited by 1972scoutII; 01-10-2011 at 12:53 PM.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2011, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1972scoutII
I wish this was an easier decision. I guess what I want isnt what most people are looking for.

I put the sing plane on the dyno to see if I could match the Pace performance figure of 300hp.

I assume they are buying long blocks and then heads, then adding the cam, but I could be wrong.

I have struggled over and over with the vortec swap. I have just purchased a new SFI flywheel, and have a brand new edlebrock intake already. Its hard to re-purchase vortec ones and sell the ones I have at used prices. If I was starting from scratch I would go the vortec route.

I really dont want to go back and put in a new cam after the warranty is out. Unlike most hot rods I just want a motor that I can forget about once its in (not adding or upgrading parts), spending time and money on lockers etc.

for 1989.00 to my door with an intake its pretty appealing. just trying to justify the 400 dollar upcharge to maintain a parts only warranty. I might be better off getting the universal crate and just swapping he cam first thing. I assume I could reuse the lifters and get a cam for 125. In the end it saves me 300, but I lose the warranty. And I have to buy gaskets, drop the oil pan etc
I think what you're looking for is the same for a lot of us. A reliable engine, a warranty, but with a "little more" cam without giving up all the warranty. With a little bit of cam these engines can really come to life and still have the reliability we would like.

Since you already have a new flywheel and Edelbrock intake, I can see that it would be hard to change to a Vortec, without taking another hit on those parts.

It does seem like a lot to maintain a minimal warranty. Unless you get one of the oddball "lemons" you aren't going to use it, but........if you get that oddball, you'll sure be glad you have it, if they don't hassle you because of the "non-cataloged" installation, and their wording about having to have any upgrades to the installation to handle the extra power like cooling upgrades, etc.

You can do better than $125 for a cam.

For cams equivalent to the RV cam:

Speed Pro CL1014 cam/lifter kit $85.99 at Northern Auto Parts

Lunati 10000LK Bare Bones cam/lifter kit $99.95 at Summit Racing

For cams equivalent to the 350HO cam:

Speed Pro CL1013R cam/lifter kit $91.99 at Northern Auto Parts

Lunati 10001LK Bare Bones cam/lifter kit $99.95 at Summit Racing

Man, I know there's a LOT to think about here. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Editted to add: I don't pull the pan the change a cam in a SBC if the engine is in the car. I do a "timing cover trim" like in this thread on NastyZ28.com

Last edited by BigEd36; 01-10-2011 at 01:36 PM.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2011, 01:13 PM
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To add something not necessarily related to your build:

The engine I would like to see GMPP come out with is the Universal 350 short block with Vortec heads and the 350HO cam, basically an "old school" 350HO. I bet a bunch of guys would grab these up.

Last edited by BigEd36; 01-10-2011 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Oops, I did already put this in my previous post. Sorry
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2011, 05:43 PM
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I was thinking about this cam

Its rated to start power off idle

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-12-231-2/

I should be able to use the lifters if the engine has never been right

So cost would be

Cam 100
intake gaskets 11
RTV 10
timing cover gasket 5
Notch timing cover Free
My Labor 4 hours Free

~ 130

Doesnt seem too bad


I guess I am not so concerned about the warranty, companies dont make money by offering warranties and then fixing lots of stuff, they make money by offering warranties and then denying claims/ or not haveing thier stuff break.

So its really a toss up either its peace of mind that its built reasonibly well or its not worth the paper its written on.

Its like most things, it probably depends on who you get when or if you get a claim.

GM has a pretty good rep, but most of those good things are when it was installed in a car that it was supposed to go in

Last edited by 1972scoutII; 01-10-2011 at 05:55 PM.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2011, 12:21 PM
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Ended up buying a 355 locally on craigslist


ADD TEXT
Never been ran rebuilt 355 with 4 bolt main. Edlebrock intake, Edlebrock water pump and fuel pump, Edlebrock 7102 mid range cam,Edlebrock valave covers, Roller tip rockers, cloyles double roller timing chain, flat top pistons, 9:1 compression, steel rebuilt heads, New harmonic balancer, Everything is new. Mid 70's block





Checked it out and it has a
3970010 Block
333882 Heads with 1.94 Intake 1.6 Exhaust valves, new valves/guides/springs

Pulled the valve covers
Had Comp cam roller rockers
and what looked like comp cam poly locks


Only problem is the cam, way to rumpy for my application

Any suggestions for a good cam for this setup

will have Edlebrock 1406 on top
Accell HEI

Last edited by 1972scoutII; 01-11-2011 at 12:28 PM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2011, 01:22 AM
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I believe the Melling torque/rv cam you originally considered from West Coast Engines in post #14 would work very well for you. (It's the same as the Speed Pro CL1014 and the Lunati 10000LK that I mentioned in post #34). These cams are close enough to the stock specs to still give very strong low end but will still extend your top end power curve by 400-500 rpm. With the induction and exhaust you have on the 355 it should have a lot of torque. These cams give rpm ranges that start just off idle, basically at a "fast idle" speed. I would vote for one of these unless you really want the "brute torque" from cams with even shorter duration than the factory cams.

If you want even more torque than that, or even more than the stock cams, there are cams available that will do that. Crane lists a few that have "brute torque" in their new online catalog. Comp Cams lists their High Energy 240H that has a small bit less duration than the stock GM cams.

Elgin also list some that would give VERY strong low end in the Elgin Pro Stock catalog. The E-1100-P cam down is the same specs as Crane's "mildest" cam that they describe as having "brute low end torque". It has a very narrow 104* lobe spacing which will really bring on the torque, but it will be a relatively narrow power band (as evidenced by Crane's rpm range of 500-4000 rpm)


Ed
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2011, 12:07 AM
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I ended up going with this cam and lifter set anyone want a edelbrock 7012 and matched lifters never been ran?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-60101LK
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2011, 07:22 AM
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This has been a great discussion for me, because I want to try a new cam in my 1975 GMC K25. My current engine is the GMPP 350/290 HP, which uses a 222/222 @ .050 cam. This cam is great for a Camaro, but needs too much RPM for me to stay in the right power band.

I don't want to hijack your thread, but I do have some questions. I want a cam that helps my fuel economy and develops power down low (starts just off idle). I am willing to go farther down than the Lunati you selected (shorter duration), and there are several choices (e.g., the comp cams 240H).

However, I also have 4.10's and 31" tires, so my cruise RPM at 60 is usually about 2800 RPM. Most of these mild cams suggest they are best with a cruise RPM of about 2200-2400, and I'm not sure that is significant. Do I need to worry about cruise RPM suggestions? Is it related to the LSA, so that an LSA with a wide torque curve would let the cam work at 2800-3000 anyway?

Thanks,

Bruce
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2011, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1972scoutII
I ended up going with this cam and lifter set anyone want a edelbrock 7012 and matched lifters never been ran?
Do you mean 7102?
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2011, 09:55 AM
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Yes 7102 I cannot edit the post
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2011, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 75gmck25
This has been a great discussion for me, because I want to try a new cam in my 1975 GMC K25. My current engine is the GMPP 350/290 HP, which uses a 222/222 @ .050 cam. This cam is great for a Camaro, but needs too much RPM for me to stay in the right power band.

I don't want to hijack your thread, but I do have some questions. I want a cam that helps my fuel economy and develops power down low (starts just off idle). I am willing to go farther down than the Lunati you selected (shorter duration), and there are several choices (e.g., the comp cams 240H).

However, I also have 4.10's and 31" tires, so my cruise RPM at 60 is usually about 2800 RPM. Most of these mild cams suggest they are best with a cruise RPM of about 2200-2400, and I'm not sure that is significant. Do I need to worry about cruise RPM suggestions? Is it related to the LSA, so that an LSA with a wide torque curve would let the cam work at 2800-3000 anyway?

Thanks,

Bruce

I think the cam I just got would work well for you. If you want something even less aggressive you can look at the 06100

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1841&gid=257

Here is the desktop dyno results for my engine. You should see similiar results since the 350/290 has heads that are copies of the 882 I have.

The max torque will me right where you need. The problem you described is the exact reason I didnt get the 350/290 for my truck, it makes max power at 5500 rpms

400 lbft from 2000-4000 perfect for a truck

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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2011, 05:51 PM
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1972scout, I think you'll be happy with that Lunati cam in your 355.

75gmc, a cam doesn't just quit pulling after it's cruise rpm, but it is at the point that it starts tapering off. Even an EXTREMELY mild cam like the one in my 350 TBI engine will wind to 6000 rpm, but it goes very flat after 4000 rpm. I think a cam like 1972scout chose for his 355 would work pretty well for you too. His cam is a VooDoo version of the 350HO cam (and the Speed Pro and Lunati Bare Bones versions I mentioned earlier). Any of these would give your 350 better street manners than the cam your 350/290 is running now, better match your cruise rpm, but still give about the same, or a bit more, top end hp. Your cam is the same as the old 327/350HP cam. With 222* duration at .050", 114* lobe spacing ground "straight up", it has plenty of duration for the top end, but it really starts giving up the bottom (the 327/350 had 2.5 more points of compression to make bottom end). The wide lobe spacing gives a wide power band, smooths out the idle and raises the idle vacuum for power brakes. With the duration, lobe spacing, and being ground straight up it carries the hp on the top end. The 350HO cam is 212* duration on the intake with 222* exhaust. Most of the aftermarket copies (like the Speed Pro and Lunati Bare Bones) have 214* and 224* duration with a few thousandths more lift, they're close enough I consider them the same cam. With 8-10* less duration on the intake that moves the power band down in the rpm range. The slightly tighter 112* lobe spacing and 4* or 5* advance ground in for 107* or 108* intake centerline (depending on which version you get) brings the power band a little lower in the rpm range also. Tighter lobe spacing generally brings on the torque a little sooner. Generally street/strip cams are ground with 110 - 114 lobe spacing so you can have a wide power band to cover all the driving conditions. A cam with very narrow lobe centers will build more peak torque but in a narrower power band. Wider lobe spacing gives a wider power band (comes on a little sooner and holds the top end longer but doesn't build as much peak hp). This is why oval track engines generally run tighter lobe spacing than street/strip cams, sometimes as narrow as 100*. An oval track engine runs in a pretty narrow rpm range. In my years stock car racing I raced on some tracks where my rpm didn't vary much over 1000 rpm. I don't believe I ever raced on a track where rpm changed over 2000 rpm or so. So, oval track engines can use a cam with higher peak power in a narrower rpm range, you gear the car to keep the rpm where you want/need it.

If you want a little more bottom than the above cams, the cams considered "rv/towing" cams would work well, and still give some more top end than stock. The "generic" spec for those is about .420 lift intake .440 lift exhaust 204* at .050 intake and 214* at .050 exhaust 112* lobe spacing, ground with a 107 or 108 intake centerline (4 or 5* advance ground in). Speed Pro has a version CL1151R at Northern Auto Parts with the same specs but 110* lobe spacing. It should build torque a little sooner than the others and maybe flatten out a little quicker but it won't be a big difference either way.

These 2 classes of cams (for purposes of this discussion I'll call 'em the "rv/towing class" and the "350HO class") would have IMO made a much better choice for GMPP to put in the 350 Goodwrench engine to make their 350/290 performance version than the 327/350 cam. The versions being put out by Sallee Chevrolet (285 HP with the rv/towing class cam) and Pace Performance (300 HP with the 350HO cam) would make a better mannered daily driver and still give basically the same hp as the 350/290. In the case of the Pace Performance 350/300 the price is well under the price of the 350/290. I don't have any price info for the Sallee Chevrolet version. And it's why I consider the 350/290 over priced. Any of us could buy the Universal 350 and install whatever cam we want for less $$$ then the 350/290. Anybody out there at GMPP listening? If you go any milder than the rv/towing class you're at the stock level you would have had if you would have just purchased the Universal 350! Since you're going to end up with a cam change you would have been better off to have gotten the Goodwrench engine in the first place as the camshaft is the ONLY part that is different in the Goodwrench Universal 350 version and the GM Performance Parts 350/290 version. A cam, lifters, and a set of valve springs puts you "good to go" with the $1500 Goodwrench Universal 350.
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Old 01-17-2011, 07:24 AM
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All very good comments.

My question is very simple. To get decent mileage and torque for a daily driver 4x4 truck, at what point is there very little gain by going more conservative with the camshaft? With my current cam and city driving I am only running about 8-9 mpg, which makes it tough for a daily driver. I'm not looking for miracles, but even a couple MPG would help.

The standard crate 350 uses a 195/202 camshaft, and there are quite a few similar cams available from different vendors (like the Lunati 06100 that was mentioned). However, most folks recommend something more in the range of 204/214 as a step up in power. (like the Lunati 06103). Lunati also has a couple of single pattern cams at 201/201 and 205/205. Most of these run 112 LSA, with the exception of the 205/205 with an LSA of 110.

Most articles I've found are focused on achieving maximum horsepower, and 5 more HP at 5300 RPM isn't really what I am looking for. I want good gas mileage and good pulling power (torque) from idle to about 4500 rpm.

I'm headed in the direction of using an RV cam in the 204/214 range, but I'm also still researching.

Thanks,

Bruce
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