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Old 01-01-2009, 01:04 PM
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Flame thrower exhaust

OK all of you fellow Motor Heads, this is an invitation for you to play Devilís Advocate with me. I have a device that I have been working on to create the voltage and modulation to fire a pair of coils. The application would be for a flame thrower exhaust system. The advantage would be that all parts with the exception of the board are replaceable. And of course if you were to somehow burn the board it too is replaceable. Unlike the ones that are available on eBay and other places, it is not solid state and as I have all ready stated all parts are replaceable. When any of these other devices burn up or give out you have to replace the whole controller for anywhere from $35.00 to a $100.00 dollars or more. This is not a new idea it has been around since the fifties. The problem with the old school method of doing this is that the devices that they used rely on un-burnt gas from the carís carburetor to fuel the flame. Older cars did not burn fuel as efficiently as modern fuel/ignition systems and therefore there was always some un-burnt fuel in the exhaust; and if you revved the engine up and turned the power off to the engine coil then this effect was enhanced. I do not like this because raw gas being dumped into the cylinders can wear out the rings really fast. And on modern ignition/fuel systems the raw gases being dumped into a catalytic converter can destroy the converter in short period of time. So with this all said what is needed is a device to regulate spark and control a switch that would allow fuel to be added into the exhaust through nozzles located toward the tail pipe outlet but just before the spark plugs. The one that I have made uses a standard 5 pole automotive relay and a standard automotive condenser and coil to do the trick. On the board it has one relay to turn the board on and two relays and two condensers to fire the two coils. It has a 15 amp fuse on the main power lead to keep from burning the board in the event something was wired wrong and it has a diode to keep any voltage spikes from traveling back into the cars power supply. It also has a fourth relay that when the power is turned on to the board it creates a ground circuit. This would be used to turn the added fuel switch or auxiliary fuel pump on. You would basically run a fused power supply from the car and to the fuel switch or an installed auxiliary fuel pump and then the grounded lead of this circuit would go to this relay so that when the power was turned on to the board, this circuit would be completed. My plan is to install the spark plugs in the tail pipe located about four inches upstream from the outlet and then locate an NOS fogger nozzle about four inches in front of that. I will use an auxiliary electric fuel pump and run this fuel pump from the fourth relay that is on the board. It will require a regulator and some testing to get everything to work just right. It may even need a fresh air intake just in front of the nozzles. But this is all minor and would be addressed during testing. An alternative to adding gasoline would be to introduce propane and this could be done in a similar fashion using a propane valve/switch and no fuel pump. This forum has a lot of very intelligent people on it and what I am looking for here is any available input. I have done a lot of research on this and my thoughts are that I can mass produce this board and sell them with a profit for about $25.00 to $35.00 each. This is of course with out any condensers, relays or coils or any of the parts that would be needed to supply the extra fuel. The relays and condensers are easy to obtain but I would include the diode even though it is easily obtainable through radio shack. I know that this is not a get rich quick idea it would just be something to supplement my income. Tell me what you think about the legal aspects, available market, pricing and anything else that you can think of.
Thanks, Chris

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Last edited by Chris Kemp; 01-01-2009 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 01-01-2009, 06:37 PM
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I have wanted to install flame throwers on my car for 15 years. Unfortunately my rod is a fuelie. Just never got around to it.

My buddies use a cheapo MSD on their cars.

Legal?
As far as I know flamethrowers are illegal everywhere on public property, and can be considered "reckless endangerment" if used on private parking lots.

I was at the Frog Follies in Evansville IN maybe 10 years ago and one jerk kept revving up and jumping to 2 feet behind the car in front of him in the park exit lane. After about 5 times, the guy in front blasted the jerk behind with his flame throwers. The crowd loved it. The jerk behind wanted to fight. LOL.

Unfortunately since the liberals are allowing product manufacturers to be sued by victims because of willful misuse of the product by a consumer*, you could be opening yourself up for massive financial losses.
It will only get worse now that the liberal muslim socialists have taken over this country. BOAKYAG

*bartenders and liquor stores responsible for drunks' actions
*tobacco manufacturers responsible for people getting cancer
*tire and vehicle manufacturers responsible for people driving their tires at 15 psi and having blowouts. (Ford and Firestone)
*trying to sue gun and ammo manufacturers for people shooting people

etc.
etc.

Last edited by ScoTFrenzel; 01-01-2009 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 01-01-2009, 07:47 PM
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Yeah I know they are way cool but illegal on the high way and if some one were to get hurt by one I could possibly be sued. But if it were sold in a kit form as in just the board and no components do you think that this would shift most of the liability toward the person that assembled and installed the device? It is a real simple device and so far it has fired any coil that I have hooked up to it and it has the added plus that all of the components are serviceable. This would be a first because instead of having a tag that reads "NO SERVICEABLE PARTS" it would have a tag that reads "ALL PARTS SERVICEABLE" LOL. But seriously I can produce this thing and sell them with about a 200% profit margin for around $25.00. And as I have said it is not junk like some of the other devices that are available. Another idea that I have been knocking around would be to market it as a device for testing coils, spark-plugs and wires. What do you think about this angle? Oh and it would work on a fuel injected car. Check out my members gallery to see some pictures of it firing two spark plugs. I have not yet learned how to show them in a post. Any help here would be appreciated.
Chris

Last edited by Chris Kemp; 01-01-2009 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 01-02-2009, 07:45 AM
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If it's for your car, this is a use with your best discretion situation. If you are firing off in a local hot-rod hang out on a Wednesday night, with nobody in the line of fire, I highly doubt there would be any legal repercussions. (Even if a lawman were to see this occur, as most of them would be fascinated by it also.) If you are talking about the manufacture and distribution of the kits, to save some face simply don't sell a 100% complete kit. Omit something small and simple that people can purchase on their own such as the spark plugs to ignite the flames which should put you in the clear as far as selling "a weapon." Have your lawyer write a disclaimer on your behalf, and an acceptance on the buyers behalf which states that "purchaser of the kit must obide by all local, state, and federal laws which are applicable." This means, if flame kits are illegal all over the country, the buyer realizes "it's not to be used at all" or in other words they are accepting responsibility for their own actions should they install the kit and light up the streets at night.
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:36 AM
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spark coil

Your item sounds neat. But for low-buck rodders, a Model T coil or two would fire the plugs. They have a coil and buzzer (the buzzer fires the coil), and are often cheap at flea markets. Every Model T had four of them on the firewall, one for each cylinder.

Ham radio operators used them in the 1920s to make a cheap and simple spark radio transmitter.
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:50 AM
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There you go. Trying to be logical and rational.

GOOD LUCK
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:25 PM
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weed burners

advertize then as weed burners for farmers. list one for sale in the local farmer news magazine.... honest judge I didn't know what those kids were buying them for.
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Old 01-03-2009, 05:55 PM
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Hey guys I like these answers. Now all I need is to draw out the circuits on paper and send them to the people that I have talked to about burning the boards.
Thanks! Chris
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:02 PM
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I've setup flame throwers with nothing more than a SPDT relay to fire the coil going to the exhaust. I wired the NC poles to the negative on the engine's coil and the NO poles to the coil going to the plug in exhaust, so when the button is pressed, the relay kills the engine's ignition (yes, sending raw fuel in and out of the cylinders, washing down the walls) and fires the coil going to the plug in the exhaust. This is, of course, very primitive and not so great for the engine, but I've never done it to anything worth caring about.

It does work though, very well actually, it lights every time. The great part is with a manual transmission, you can keep the flame going strong as long as the vehicle is rolling in gear. I have a video somewhere of an S10 I put this setup on, just a TBI 2.8L with a 5 speed, going down the highway at night with a 4' flame trailing it for about 1/4 mile.

I don't see the need to pulse the coil, it couldn't hurt, but I've done a couple of these and never had a problem just hitting it with a steady 12v. Probably will wear out the coil quicker than normal, but those are cheap and plentiful.

Here is my boss' Suzuki Samurai after installation, the only fuel is what is coming from the little EFI 1.3L engine. His wife drives that to work, so it doesn't get lit too often, but after a year it is still working great, as long as we keep the plug clean.
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:38 PM
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"I don't see the need to pulse the coil, it couldn't hurt, but I've done a couple of these and never had a problem just hitting it with a steady 12v."

If you don't pulse the coil I don't think the spark plus is firing. Maybe what's happening is that the first (single) spark lights the flame, which keeps burning the added unburnt fuel dumped out.

maybe.....
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user151
"I don't see the need to pulse the coil, it couldn't hurt, but I've done a couple of these and never had a problem just hitting it with a steady 12v."

If you don't pulse the coil I don't think the spark plus is firing. Maybe what's happening is that the first (single) spark lights the flame, which keeps burning the added unburnt fuel dumped out.

maybe.....
I'll have to look at the Samurai the next time I see it, I'm pretty sure it gives a steady spark.
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:53 PM
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scottfrenzel speaks the truth
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elliott
I've setup flame throwers with nothing more than a SPDT relay to fire the coil going to the exhaust. I wired the NC poles to the negative on the engine's coil and the NO poles to the coil going to the plug in exhaust, so when the button is pressed, the relay kills the engine's ignition (yes, sending raw fuel in and out of the cylinders, washing down the walls) and fires the coil going to the plug in the exhaust. This is, of course, very primitive and not so great for the engine, but I've never done it to anything worth caring about.

It does work though, very well actually, it lights every time. The great part is with a manual transmission, you can keep the flame going strong as long as the vehicle is rolling in gear. I have a video somewhere of an S10 I put this setup on, just a TBI 2.8L with a 5 speed, going down the highway at night with a 4' flame trailing it for about 1/4 mile.

I don't see the need to pulse the coil, it couldn't hurt, but I've done a couple of these and never had a problem just hitting it with a steady 12v. Probably will wear out the coil quicker than normal, but those are cheap and plentiful.

Here is my boss' Suzuki Samurai after installation, the only fuel is what is coming from the little EFI 1.3L engine. His wife drives that to work, so it doesn't get lit too often, but after a year it is still working great, as long as we keep the plug clean.
If you are using the coil power supply then you are getting a pulsed signal from the car ignition module. New car ignition systems use transistors to do the same thing that condensers did in older ignition systems. You have to have the voltage push to create the jump in the spark. The reason I did not choose transistors in this device is because you can't find them as easy as you can a condenser and when you do they cost more. They usually have to be soldered in place where as the condenser does not and I wanted this device to be simple.

Over the years I have made several of these it's just that this is the first time I have built one this way. Of the ones that I have built in the past some killed the engine ignition coil so that unburnt fuel would travel down to the spark plugs that are located in the tail pipes. In the past I found that a continuous pulsing spark works the best. Of the ones that I built in the past some were out of Model A coils but they are getting hard to find. I even built one using a cut down chevy distributor with a small electric motor that turned it so the points would open and close. And with this device I did not use the rotor or the cap.

The one that I am working on in this post uses the standard 5 pole relay one for each coil and one relay to turn them on, similar to what you describe. But if you think that someone would want to kill the cars ignition coil rather then introduce additional fuel into the exhaust tail pipe then I could add an extra relay to do this. I can make it work with the same type 5 pole relay (Double Contact) so that when the device is in the off position the positive lead power that would go to the engine ignition coil would pass through this additional relay and back to the coil of the car. And when the device is turned on, this circuit would go to the open position and the circuit would be broken. Thus allowing raw unburnt fuel to pass through the engine. It would all be accomplished using 5 pole relays so the installation would be less confusing. If you think that someone would opt for this approach I can add it to the board for about .75 cents. And then they would have the option of not using this feature by simply not adding the splice in the ignition coil power and not plugging a relay into the socket. What do you think?

One relay to turn the board on, two relays one for each coil, one relay to run an auxiliary fuel pump or a fuel valve/solenoid and one relay to run the car ignition coil power lead through. Five relays total. Two condensers, a numbered terminal connector block (for easy wiring), one 15amp fuse and a diode to eliminate voltage spikes traveling back into the car power supply. All of the parts are serviceable. It would give the user plenty of options plus it's so simple a cave man can do it.

Last edited by Chris Kemp; 01-03-2009 at 09:48 PM.
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Kemp
If you are using the coil power supply then you are getting a pulsed signal from the car ignition module.
I pulled a clean 12v straight from the fuse box and grounded to the frame, no condenser either. The only thing the relay is doing to the negative on the engine's coil is interrupting it, not redirecting it.
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Old 01-04-2009, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elliott
I pulled a clean 12v straight from the fuse box and grounded to the frame, no condenser either. The only thing the relay is doing to the negative on the engine's coil is interrupting it, not redirecting it.
OK I follow what you did now. But back to my question that was in my last reply. Do you think that I should add a similar feature to this board?
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