flex head torque wrench worth the $? - Page 5 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Garage - Tools
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #61 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 07:15 AM
Bad Rat 414's Avatar
www.bigblock67chevelle.com
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: www.bigblock67chevelle.com
Age: 53
Posts: 170
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cool!

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #62 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 08:19 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,909
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Hippie, How do you intend to test the torque on the bolt? That is, from what is being said here the extension would affect torque applied to the bolt(it will not) but not the reading from the wrench itself. What I asked earlier about using two torque wrenches connected with an extension would be the only way to do this without using calibration equipment. The only meaningful way to do this would be to measure the wrench reading against a known torque value and there is no reliable way to do this using a fastener. It seems fairly simple but I can't get this guy to answer my question, If you connect two torque wrenches together with an extension will one read less than the other? Which one? Why? If you have two people simply holding the wrenches unsupported and trying to apply torque you would induce variables since it would be nearly impossible for both to apply force at exactly the same angles which theoretically would not matter but mechanically induced error would probably occur. If you attempt to support the extension, say inside a pipe locked in a vise, then there still would likely be a problem with friction between the pipe and extension which could cause erroneous readings. Torquing a bolt with or without an extension and then trying again with or without the extension proves nothing either since almost every time you torque a fastener to it's proper value and then let it "rest" a while it will move slightly most times if re-torqued. All these variables are what causes this misunderstanding in the first place and all too often one of these flawed "tests" are used to come to the wrong conclusion. Simple laws of physics apply here and are quite clear(obviously to the manufacturers also since no "correction" data is included). This guy cannot be convinced no matter what you do because he already knows the truth and is simply obsessed with proving he is right no matter what it has done to his creditability so far.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #63 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 08:30 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,909
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Hippie, My apologies, I read your post quickly and did not realize the kind of equipment you have on hand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #64 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 08:30 AM
Bad Rat 414's Avatar
www.bigblock67chevelle.com
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: www.bigblock67chevelle.com
Age: 53
Posts: 170
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Oldred, now you've thrown me off. I'm not sure what your talking about connecting two torque wrenches. I did find a site with this talked about. I'm talking about using an exstention on the drive not the handle. Just to make it plain I am talking about an extension not an adapter. Here's that site: http://www.specialpatrolgroup.co.uk/...ue/torque.html
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #65 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 08:34 AM
Bad Rat 414's Avatar
www.bigblock67chevelle.com
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: www.bigblock67chevelle.com
Age: 53
Posts: 170
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'm really not sure what that site is talking about at the bottom of the page.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #66 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 08:54 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,909
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Rat, Ok for the record I am talking about a common socket extension that extends 90 deg from the wrench handle. I did not realize what hippie had to do this test with at first so maybe he can do it but any error would have to be mechanically induced. I am talking about theory using two torque wrenches connected by an extension,(one could be thought of as the fastener) one at the connector end and the other at the socket end, now apply a given torque setting to either one and would one read less than the other? which one? why? I think the answer to this is quite obvious and for someone to argue that things like inertia from the mass of an extension affecting a properly used torque wrench is just plain ridiculous. I wonder if he even realizes that inertia would only be a factor during acceleration or deceleration and would have no effect on a steady pull or even if he really knows what inertia is.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #67 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 09:06 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,909
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Rat, I went back to the bottom that page and I think you might be talking about being sure the wrench is in line with the extension? If it were allowed to swing to an angle this would effectively shorten the extension(adapter) and give an erroneous reading.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #68 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 10:23 AM
Hippie's Avatar
Analog man in a digital world.
 

Last journal entry: HEI comparison.
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 2,255
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
One thing you have to remember is that torque wrenches are considered to be "in calibration" if they can repeat a torque setting within 10% on 3 seperate pulls. Usually they will repeat much closer than that but I honestly doubt there will be more than a 10% variation between the test with and without the extension. In other words I doubt you'll see enough difference to make any definite conclusion but if the variation falls within 10% I think we can say that effectively there is not enough difference to have a detrimental affect on the final torque at the fastener. We shall see.........
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #69 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 12:30 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,909
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Hippie, The laws of physics(along with the wrench manufacturers) plainly state it can have no effect. This has been accepted since torque wrenches have been in existence and used accordingly on everything from lug nuts to the space shuttle. It is amazing how this old myth refuses to die but as I pointed out earlier it has caused many equipment and engine failures due to over-torqued fasteners and I am sure that it will continue to do this. If someone only adds a couple of pounds to a 75 ft/lb setting for instance then not much will happen but when they attempt to add 10% or so it can result in disaster.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #70 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 04:48 PM
Hippie's Avatar
Analog man in a digital world.
 

Last journal entry: HEI comparison.
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 2,255
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
If someone only adds a couple of pounds to a 75 ft/lb setting for instance then not much will happen but when they attempt to add 10% or so it can result in disaster.
And yet how many of us bother to have our torque wrenches checked occasionally? You would be amazed at the variation that can occur over 6 months or a year depending on how much the wrench is used or abused or if it is improperly stored. I usually only see a Ft Lb or 2 on most wrenches but I have seen some lose or gain as much as 15% accuracy. Of course we have people that think they are breaker bars, pry bars and ball peen hammers. Nobody but NOBODY gets to borrow my torque wrench!

As far as the physics of it is concerned I'm not arguing with anybody, I'm just going to do a test. If there IS any torque lost through an extension I seriously doubt it would be measurable but since I have the equipment available and I'm doing the checks anyway what the heck?! You guys have been arguing this for how long now? Wouldn't it be nice to have a test done on some accurate test equipment? My gut instinct tells me "physics" will be vindicated. I've been doing this for nearly 20 years, I'm getting fairly good at it so sit back relax and wait for the results.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #71 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 06:39 PM
NXS's Avatar
NXS NXS is offline
wind & fire = guides to power
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,534
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Mythbusters...here we come!

For the record I said we had a 4% variance in our little shop tests, not 10%.
Quote:
This guy cannot be convinced no matter what you do because he already knows the truth and is simply obsessed with proving he is right
I am not "This guy", I am Nisan Catron. I am not obsessed...but you may be. but I am anxious to see Hippies tests. I've also attatched some pics to help show what I've been saying:

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	blttq.gif
Views:	336
Size:	4.1 KB
ID:	7880  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #72 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 07:32 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,909
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
What YOU have been saying , Thats what we have been telling YOU all along. How many times have we told you that TILTING the extension will affect the applied torque by introducing a leverage factor into the equation. There are many ways to improperly use a torque wrench or any other tool and that holding illustration is just another example of a mechanically induced error. What they are saying is DON'T DO THAT that shows how NOT to use a torque wrench! What exactly do you think you have found here? This started when you tried to say that an extension would be in error because of twisting and you could not prove that so you have gone off in several other directions since claiming everything from inertia to a full moon would effect the reading.

How much time have you spent searching the net for info to back up your point and you say you are not obsessed? If you would have the common courtesy to answer just ONE question I would like for you to explain why it is so hard to find credible info to back up what you STARTED OUT saying but the opposite info is easy to find, why is that? If you can't answer that then how about which one of those torque wrenches connected together would read less, which one? Why?

Last edited by oldred; 11-16-2005 at 08:22 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #73 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 08:09 PM
Bad Rat 414's Avatar
www.bigblock67chevelle.com
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: www.bigblock67chevelle.com
Age: 53
Posts: 170
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
LOL, don't forget he also said it makes a difference where you put your hands on the torque wrench.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #74 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 08:18 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,909
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Rat, He's come full circle now he is trying to say exactly what we have told him from the start. He comes up with something showing how using a wrench improperly will give an erroneous reading and then says "see here this proves what I have been saying"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #75 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2005, 08:56 PM
NXS's Avatar
NXS NXS is offline
wind & fire = guides to power
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,534
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
It DOES matter where you put your hand on the Tq wrench.
I haven't changed what I've said since the beginning.
Obsessed? You've had 10 posts of the last 23 and I've had 3. I'm done.
-ciao
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Garage - Tools posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How do threadf lubes affect torque values? jonathanks Engine 11 05-12-2014 07:00 PM
Need a New Torque Wrench DTL504 Engine 33 10-25-2007 06:06 PM
Torque Wrench johndoe Garage - Tools 4 10-13-2004 06:37 AM
flywheel torque = to flex-plate torque?? bullheimer Hotrodding Basics 2 05-26-2004 11:24 AM
no torque wrench jmi Transmission - Rearend 7 06-10-2002 01:17 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.