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Old 12-18-2005, 09:23 AM
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Fluid dampners and balance questions...

I`ve been told by more than one machinest that fluid dampners are really more for external balanced engines rather than internal balanced...?

Would really like to hear thoughts and idea`s on this subject...


Also advantages to using (which I pretty well know) but also differences in brands and how like a TCI rattler works...? (why would it go bad also...?)

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Old 12-18-2005, 10:33 AM
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I`ve been told by more than one machinest that fluid dampners are really more for external balanced engines rather than internal balanced...?
I dont believe that.

If there was a viscous type damper available for my engine thats what I would want to use.

Theres only one moving part and its sealed inside so it cant wear out like a rubber elastomer damper.
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Old 12-18-2005, 11:20 AM
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Personally, I'd only consider ATI stuff on the end of a crank.
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Old 12-18-2005, 11:36 AM
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Internal only uses fluid type dampers, external MUST be balanced with the assembly.
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Old 12-18-2005, 11:38 AM
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Fluidampers come in both internal and external balance.

External balance is 2 piece and the rotating assembly is balanced with the external weight half only

Internal balance Fluidampers are not balanced with the rotating assembly.

And... I use ATI Superdampers on all my stuff. Stock engines I will use a professional products damper.
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Old 12-18-2005, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Latvala
I dont believe that.

If there was a viscous type damper available for my engine thats what I would want to use.

Theres only one moving part and its sealed inside so it cant wear out like a rubber elastomer damper.
I prefer the fluid dampner.
It is true that an internally balanced engine will have less crankshaft fatigue because the weight is not out on the ends..

Crankshafts flop around and twist like a rope being flopped. Dampners "reduce" the flop and twist so that the crankshaft will not metal fatigue. Flop varies from rpm to rpm, acceleration, engine load, by cylinder firing pulsations, etc. If an engine "misses" the harmonics change. A gazillion differenet things happen at once, and the crank material makes a difference too.

Aftermarket dampners are more able to be effective over more varied conditions. A good dampner will also increase measured power on any engine.

Most people believe that if the dampner "spin balances" it is ok for the engine. I have seen many race cars with factory dampners on them.

I prefer the fluid dampner approach.... but ATI has done some great advertising and is a major player in the market.

www.readershotrods.com drag cars/ georges drag strip
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Old 12-18-2005, 11:55 AM
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I was thinking a 400 motor and did not read the posting to good, duh.
The one made for internal/external has a BOLT on counter weight.
I would not use it on a 400 motor myself, the question has been answered by the orher gearheads.
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Old 12-18-2005, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Crankshafts flop around and twist like a rope being flopped. Dampners "reduce" the flop and twist so that the crankshaft will not metal fatigue. Flop varies from rpm to rpm, acceleration, engine load, by cylinder firing pulsations, etc. If an engine "misses" the harmonics change. A gazillion differenet things happen at once, and the crank material makes a difference too.

xntrik... Thanks thats very informative... With that thought in mind would`nt it be safe to say the crankshaft is basicly oscillating from the center out...? So the dampner is absorbing from the front end (its normal location)...? What about if it could be located in the middle of the crank...? Kinda cool to have a fluid damper in the middle area of the crank to stop harmonics before they have a chance to travel up and down the crank...?

Also back to one other question about Rattlers...? Whats the story on them...?

Oh and why would ATI be any better...? Kinda hard for a 1 piece part that is sealed to fail...? (any brand as long as its SFI rated...?)
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Old 12-18-2005, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumpstick
xntrik... Thanks thats very informative... With that thought in mind would`nt it be safe to say the crankshaft is basicly oscillating from the center out...? So the dampner is absorbing from the front end (its normal location)...? What about if it could be located in the middle of the crank...? Kinda cool to have a fluid damper in the middle area of the crank to stop harmonics before they have a chance to travel up and down the crank...?

Also back to one other question about Rattlers...? Whats the story on them...?

Oh and why would ATI be any better...? Kinda hard for a 1 piece part that is sealed to fail...? (any brand as long as its SFI rated...?)
The crank is being made to oscillate from every journal in every direction. A crank is a bent piece of metal with forces simultaneously applied from every journal angle to varying degrees...

Picture a slinky, jump rope, etc. that has one big wave moving from end to end and a couple smaller waves moving within that wave, mayge in the opposite directions or the same and at different rates than the big wave. Now picture this happening in several planes at the same time and the crankshaft is twisting at the same time because of the firing pulses applied to it. If you saw some of the engineering graphs about this it would make everyone wonder how the bearings stay in an engine. Most of these wiggles are very tiny but cause metal fatigue. (I have some graphs somewhere, maybe I can post one.... it is very interesting to see how the crank wave can change from .0004 to almost .000002 at certain conditions.

I have never researched the dampner construction thoroughly so I base my personal preferences on "friend" useage. Since I know so little about the detailed engineering of each brand, I tend to say..... pick one and go for it.
Each has its pluses and minuses.... remember they have a tremendously varied job to do and comparing apples to apples is impossible. IMO

SFI is more a safety rating than a "performance evaluation".

It is sort of like BBC. I only did a couple in 4 decades, so I leave the answers and designs to the experts, and I stick to my area of expertise.

Got my curiosity up, think I will spend a while researching.

www.readershotrods.com drag cars/georges drag strip
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Last edited by xntrik; 12-18-2005 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 12-18-2005, 02:17 PM
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Here's one simple dampner chart I have. It reads in degress of deflection... but you'll get the message loud and clear...

I edited it in above but some may not have seen it yet.


http://www.wps.com/AMC/Rambler-327/T...s/v8-fig16.jpg

lots of good stuff on this site
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Old 12-18-2005, 02:26 PM
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go to www.tciauto.com, and check out the tutorial they have for the rattler. not going for the advertisement or product sales here, just the info in the article........makes for some good reading...........as far as brands go, everybody has their preference, and arguments for them, so it's pointless to say "which one is best". i prefer the tci myself, but have ran fluidampr in the past and had absolutely no problems with it whatsoever. on a side note, nearly every diesel engine out there (the bigger ones) run a fluid type damper, so that says something about how effective they are........many engine builders prefer the ati...........biggest thing is you get the right one for your application, just like matching a carb. and get it balanced with your assembly, according to manufacturers recommendations.
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Old 12-18-2005, 03:03 PM
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TCI is a good site, thanks.
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Old 12-18-2005, 04:05 PM
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All very good stuff. I still believe that ATI does a superior job with harmonics over a wider rpm range.
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Old 12-20-2005, 04:31 PM
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Here's a good site for engine balance. I don't know if it has been posted for all to see yet.

http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/crank-bal-c.htm

excerpt

"Even though on paper the total of the balance weights is correct, the out-of-balance forces (engine components) are corrected by opposing forces (balance weights) as much as one foot away from them. This means that the crankshaft is subject to bending forces from both directions all the time, even when the motor is in a favorable RPM range (where the 50% factor is most effective)."


Merry Christmas gang.

Last edited by xntrik; 12-20-2005 at 04:43 PM.
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