The ford 351 modified - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2005, 08:01 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Grand Rapids Michigan
Posts: 1
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The ford 351 modified

Hi How ya doin? I just recently bought a 1978 murcury cougar xr7 with a 351 modified in it and i was just wondering if anyone could tell me how that differs from the 351 cleavland and the 351 windsor. Also if it is inferior in perfomance.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2005, 08:52 PM
347mustang's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: oklahoma
Posts: 389
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
its junk in my book..its a so called big block...just has a wide head...junk heads and crank..no performance to it at all...its a 400 motified with 351 heads..i think it is..so its calleda 351 motified..the 351 w..is way better and the 351 clevland is a good motor..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2005, 11:03 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Gordonville MO
Age: 67
Posts: 307
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The 351M is a 400 with a shorter stroke.
Both motors have essentially 2bbl Cleveland
open chamber heads. Open comb chambers
are not good because there's little detonation
resistance.
Cleveland cams, timing sets, etc, fit.

The block is taller, therefore wider, than a
351W, which is itself a bit taller than a 351C.

The only worthwhile performance setup is
to go with the 400. All you have to do to
your block is to get the 400 crank, not
sure but I think the rods are the same,
but not sure.

The 400 has quite long rods so the rod
to stroke ratio is good.

Any Cleveland head bolts onto either block.
The 2bbl closed chamber iron Australian
head is a good head and can be had fairly
reasonable.

Edelbrock has just released aluminum
Cleveland heads that are about 1/2 way between
the 2bbl and 4bbl heads in port and valve size.
They also make a Performer Air Gap for the
Cleveland engine.

www.pricemotorsport.com makes adapters to
fit regular Cleveland hi perf intakes to the
400 block with Cleveland heads.

You probly won't have much, if any, headers
available.

Wouldn't be exactly cheap, but you could
easily make over 450 hp and near 500 torque
with a fairly well setup 400, esp w/those
new Ebrock heads and intake, and any one
of many available Cleveland cams.

As long as that's what came in your car,
you would avoid the normal problems with
motor mounts and transmissions to fit.

It's most likely got the 429/460 bellhousing,
although a few of them had dual bellhousings
to also fit transmissions that bolt onto Clevelands
and Windsors.

If you'd want to upgrade to, i.e. a 4R70W overdrive,
there are outfits that make adapters to fit those
trans onto 429/460 blocks, so you'd be OK there.

The stock crank & rods, with normal rebuilding,
are plenty adequate for over 400 hp. Probly good
to use ARP main studs and rod bolts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08-11-2005, 11:17 PM
Pony's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Lynnwood, Wa.
Age: 67
Posts: 721
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The 351M is one of three in the Cleveland engine family 351C/351M/400) Without getting to technical, it's a destroked 400. The factory ran short of 351C engines (by far the best of the three) and mixed and matched and came up with the 351M. The 351M is a low compression, smog motor and puts out around 180hp. The 400 wound up in trucks has a good rep and healthy aftermarket parts support. That said I have a 351M in my 1953 Ford car and it's a good dependable engine and pushes the 53 along just fine. It can be turned into a 400 with the 400s crank/rod/piston set up and I'll probably do if I ever have to get into the 351M. The 351M has been discussed at depth on this board and you can find out a lot more by doing a search in the engine section.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2005, 06:58 AM
cboy's Avatar
Member
 

Last journal entry: Finished
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Atwater, CA
Age: 69
Posts: 3,915
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pony
The 351M has been discussed at depth on this board and you can find out a lot more by doing a search in the engine section.
Pony is right. Do a search of this site and you'll find many threads regarding the 351m. I think you'll find many general comments dismissing the motor (such as 347mustang) along with a lot of strong support for the motor among those who have built them properly and/or raced them (guys like Max Keith and Kultulz). I think the general consensus is this might not be the motor of choice if starting from scratch, but if it's the motor ya got...it can be turned into a very healthy power plant. If you decide to keep the motor in your XR7, I think the guys on this site can guide you toward some very decent HP and torque numbers.

Dewey
(But then I'm biased...with a 351m in my roadster)
__________________
Always learning...and sharing what I've learned. The Scratch-Built Hot Rod.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2005, 10:29 AM
OneMoreTime's Avatar
Hotrodders.com moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Health and safety in the shop or garage
Last journal entry: Yard Dog pic
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Age: 69
Posts: 7,231
Wiki Edits: 3

Thanks: 38
Thanked 126 Times in 122 Posts
Engine info

Look here,,,http://www.fordcobraengines.com/Modified%20History.htm

Quite a bit of info on the Ford 335 series engines..The 351M and 400m can be made to run but it takes a Ford specialist to make it so..

Those were smog era engines and were choked off at the factory to meet smog regs..

With a straight up cam and some good pistons they will work..manifolds can be an issue as not a lot was done with those engines..headers ya gotta make your own but that is not beyond a determined hotrodder..

They use the same bellhousing as the 429/460 so that needs to be taken into condsideration in the tranny area..

OMT
__________________
I have tried most all of it and now do what is known to work..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2005, 10:35 AM
pmeisel's Avatar
Glad the Jeep is on the road
 
Last wiki edit: How to identify a Ford V8
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Meridian MS & Vermilion Ohio
Age: 58
Posts: 814
Wiki Edits: 8

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Try looking here as well:

http://home.earthlink.net/~bubbaf250/

The 351M was a smog-era motor, so it is not quite as performance oriented in factory tune, and there are not as many goodies for it as others, but it is a worthwhile project if you go about it with some thought. My wife had one that was pretty decent and one of my kids' friends has one in a passed down Mercury Cougar that is pretty neat....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2005, 11:55 AM
blacklotus's Avatar
Greg
 

Last journal entry: Wiring begins
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Rome GA
Age: 49
Posts: 64
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I have a what I believe to be a 400 in a 77 ford F-100 I have been building it for about a year now, check out my journal under blacklotus.

It has been difficylt to find some aftermarket parts but thay are there you just have to be patient.

I saw the motor as challenge to get everything I could out of it and I am sure when I get done I will be looking at around 350Hp which is fine for me , just having fun with it.

Greg
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2005, 03:38 PM
xntrik's Avatar
Save a horse, Ride a Cowboy.
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,131
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
351 M

First, contrary to popular mythology, the engine is not a "modified". It is a 351 Midland. Made at the Midland engine plant along with the 400M and uses the big block transmissions. The 351 Windsor was made at the Windsor plant and uses the small block transmissions.

Sort of like the old myth of the Ford GT-40. There was no such thing. It was the Ford GT. Whoever started the "40" thing, nobody really knows, when, how, why.

An M is a short stroke 400. Everything else is identical. It's a smog engine that has heavy rotational weight, low compression, and got 3 miles per gallon less than the Windsor in 75, comparing apples to apples. I had almost identical NEW cars with each.

I also had a '73 400 for trailer pulling that was not quite as powerful as my '77 460 car, but in my opinion was superior because the 460 was so poor.

As for the head mythology, they are poor to bad, depending on your viewpoint. It was the result of engineers guessing what they needed for the smog laws. The whole engine was an abortion that happened at the wrong time in engine history.

In almost every aspect it was worse than the Windsor. Consider history. How many of them are being used today.....? Even Ford dropped them.

Consider it the Ugly Stepchild.
If ya got one, live with it. But it is hard to make a silk purse out of a sow"s ear.
Ford Man.

Last edited by xntrik; 08-14-2005 at 03:43 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2005, 08:17 PM
aka Duke of URL
 
Last wiki edit: Finding vacuum leaks Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 4,821
Wiki Edits: 1

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pony

The factory ran short of 351C engines (by far the best of the three) and mixed and matched and came up with the 351M.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xntrik

First, contrary to popular mythology, the engine is not a "modified". It is a 351 Midland. Made at the Midland engine plant along with the 400M and uses the big block transmissions. The 351 Windsor was made at the Windsor plant and uses the small block transmissions.


The 351C was the first in the 335 Engine Series (1970). It was designed and produced not only to kick GM BUTT, but also as a replacement powerplant (351C-2V) (also 400) for the FE Series (360/390) which were being phased out during this period. The 351C finally became obsolete (1974) and was replaced by a destroked 400 to power LTD's, intermediates and Light Truck (same block-cheaper cost of production). This gave FORD two distinct engines (medium and large displacement) for powering it's cars/trucks.

It's design (335 Series) was doomed almost from the get-go as it ran head on into ever increasing emission standards. The 335 Series was simply dropped as it was simply easier and cheaper to smog the Ninety-Degree Family (302/5.0L-351W-5.8L) and FORD did an admirable job with it's EEC control systems.

There is nothing wrong from a performance standpoint with the 351M/400. They were simply built and smogged with very ineffective mechanical emission system(s) available during this time frame. All manufacturers had the same problem.

Last edited by KULTULZ; 08-14-2005 at 08:22 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2005, 11:51 PM
Max Keith's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Fort Madison,Iowa
Age: 66
Posts: 2,391
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Midlands

By far, the 400 M is the better of the two, if for no other reason than the extra 50 cubes. There is nothing wrong with either engine, other than being produced during the dark ages of the 70's and early 80's, before the companies really got ahold of smog tech.
Either engine can be made to run quite well, and are very receptive to conventional hopup tricks. The biggest limitation is the availability of intake manifolds, there being only a couple on the market.
However, Weiand and a company called PMC made adaptor plates to use the cleveland intakes on the M blocks.
M block heads are a direct interchange with the 2 bbl cleveland, and if you can get a set of Aussie 2 bbl heads to drop on it, you will have the best of all possible cleveland worlds. Headers are available but are mostly for truck application, so not sure about their use on a passenger car, fitting the chassis being the main concern. Cleveland headers will bolt right up, however there again you have a problem with chassis clearances.
Cleveland cams and ignition systems will work in an M block, being the same equipment, and it just so happens that the Cleveland, and both the M block and Lima use the same distributor. You can also use this distributor in a 351W by simply changing the cam gear, and vise versa.
The two critical points on building and Cleveland or Midland is in the valves and the oiling system.
The stock valves are a 2 piece configuration and with high tension springs, have been known to pull the stem right out of the valve head.
On the oiling system, restrictors are needed in the #2-5 cam bearing oiling passages and the lifter gallery passage running off of #5 main.
The easiest and cheapest way to deal with that is to get 5- 3/8ths" by 2" roll pins and 5- 3/16ths" by 1" roll pins. Drive the 3/8ths inch roll pin half way into the #2-5 oil passages going to the cam bearings and the passage going to the lifter gallery. When you have them about half way in, drive the 3/16ths" roll pins inside the 3/8ths pins then drive them down to seat so that they dont interfer with the main bearings.
This is a lot cheaper than the aftermarket restrictors which require tapping threads into said passages, and screwing the restrictors in. I have used this trick on clevelands in the past, for race engines, never had a problem.
With a hydraulic cam of around 220 degrees, any 4 bbl manifold you can get ahold of, a 600 CFM carb, and headers, with compression in the neighborhood of 9.5:1, you will have a 400 that is putting out 380- 400 hp at around 5000 RPM, with bucket loads of torque at the flywheel. This figures out to about 320-340 hp at the rear wheels.
The reason the Cleveland ceased production in the US was that Ford of Australia didnt have a proprietary small block V-8, so all the tooling for the Cleveland went down under, where it is still made to this very day, in both 302 and 351 configurations.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2005, 01:24 PM
pmeisel's Avatar
Glad the Jeep is on the road
 
Last wiki edit: How to identify a Ford V8
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Meridian MS & Vermilion Ohio
Age: 58
Posts: 814
Wiki Edits: 8

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Midland vs. Modified

I have heard both during my many years with Ford, but more often hear "Modified"......

Can any of you come up with a documentation or source for "Midland"? I know its not the engine plant, because the 400 and 351M were both built in Cleveland Engine Plant #2, where I work now.... and Ford doesn't own a Midland foundry... maybe they purchased the blocks, but I don't think so, I think they were cast at Cleveland Casting Plant, a few dozen yards north of here....

Kultulz, I know you have a lot of historical info, do you have anything on this?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2005, 02:21 PM
Max Keith's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Fort Madison,Iowa
Age: 66
Posts: 2,391
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Midland vs Modified

My source for referring to the M block as a Midland comes from an article which I read back in the mid 80's, in a magazine that dealt strictly with Ford products, dont remember whether it was Mustang Monthly or the one called Mustangs and Fast Fords. Been so long since I had a copy of either magazine, not sure of the exact title. I can only guess that the Midland either referred to Midland, Kansas, or Midland, Texas. At any rate, (wish I had kept the article for subject of debate), the article was quite clear that the M designated Midland. Since the magazine was a Ford specialty magazine, I would presume that they had accurate information on this. Generally, I just refer to them as the M block.
I wonder if Ford had any foundering locations that started with M?
I guess the best way to solve the debate would be to contact some one that is at the top of the food chain at Ford Motor Company and ask them.
Another way to feed the fire would be to simply write to the various Ford specialty magazines and ask them. I am sure that they would accurately research the issue.

Last edited by Max Keith; 08-15-2005 at 02:26 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2005, 03:36 PM
OneMoreTime's Avatar
Hotrodders.com moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Health and safety in the shop or garage
Last journal entry: Yard Dog pic
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Age: 69
Posts: 7,231
Wiki Edits: 3

Thanks: 38
Thanked 126 Times in 122 Posts
Well..all in all every engine out there has its issues..

For myself I like for the street a 9-1 engine with a 650 cfm 4bbl and a decent manifold and headers..I also have a liking for the 1/4 3/8 mile oval track cams as these have a big big midrange power curve that works very well on the street and do not sacrifice the low end a whole lot for normal street driving..

Most of the 351/400M engines I see are in the trucks..Here is a link to an article on the M engines

OMT
__________________
I have tried most all of it and now do what is known to work..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2005, 05:06 PM
aka Duke of URL
 
Last wiki edit: Finding vacuum leaks Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 4,821
Wiki Edits: 1

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmeisel

I have heard both during my many years with Ford, but more often hear "Modified"......

Can any of you come up with a documentation or source for "Midland"? I know its not the engine plant, because the 400 and 351M were both built in Cleveland Engine Plant #2, where I work now.... and Ford doesn't own a Midland foundry... maybe they purchased the blocks, but I don't think so, I think they were cast at Cleveland Casting Plant, a few dozen yards north of here....

Kultulz, I know you have a lot of historical info, do you have anything on this?
OK...Correct terminology is MODIFIED. This is described in the FORD RACING PARTS CATALOG and makes perfect sense. I have heard MIDLAND also and fell for it myself.

It is very simple in it's explanation, and is also similiar to the ever continuing argument regarding what FE actually means.

The 351C was built at the CLV plant, hence the designation C. This was to differentiate the engine from it's cousin at the time, the 351W. When first introduced (1970), either engine (351W or 351C)(it was interesting at the introduction as FORD gave specific details on how to identify either in it's MPC so the parts dude would not hand out the wrong service parts) could be installed in the car if the order specified engine size 351. OK, we know know about the C and W to distinguish each engine series. The 400 does not carry the M as it's displacement identifies it to it's engine family group.

So here sits FORD in the early seventies with all these engine sizes going and spending all of this foundry money. Someone gets the idea of putting the 351C stroke into the 400 block to save manufacturing costs. The 351M (Modified from both the 351C and 400) is born. Now FORD only has to produce one cylinder block for two engine sizes they need to power their fleet.

I hope I explained this so that it can be understood. The reason FORD used the suffixes on the 351's was to differentiate the engines from one another, hence the 351C, the 351M and of course the 351W.

That truck article was very good. Did you catch the paragraphs about using 351C pistons in a 351M/400?

The 351M and more importantly, the 400 are very popular with the tow truck crowd (or was) as they produce almost the same power as the 429/460 without using as much fuel. My personal interest is restoration as used in the seventies intermediates and LINCOLNS.

********************

Last edited by 68NovaSS; 04-24-2012 at 08:18 AM. Reason: Profanity. Please see: general board guidelines.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ford Ranger V8 Conversion nightrain_rod Hotrodders' Lounge 53 07-15-2009 10:45 AM
351 Ho? oldschoolrods Engine 17 03-05-2005 03:48 PM
Ford Flathead to Ford automatic c4-kit? bigjim Engine 4 01-05-2005 02:11 PM
Ford 351 37fordslantback Engine 3 04-25-2004 01:57 PM
66 f 100 with a modified? shagginwagonvic Engine 2 07-13-2003 05:20 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.