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Old 01-16-2009, 12:49 PM
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Ford 351 water pump question.

I am in need of any tips, ideas, or anything for that matter, on how to stop water pump bolts from seizing/breaking in the block. About five years ago I had my water pump go bad, and I ended up having one bolt break inside the block. Yes, the bolt hole is drilled into a water jacket. This morning I started on the same project, as I had another water pump issue. Now I have two bolts that are protruding about a 1/2" from it's seat, and won't come out any farther. This Sunday a few buddies are coming over to tackle this issue (hey, three brains are better than one!). I have to cut the heads off, pull the cover off and drill and tap everything out.

Now for my question: Is there some secret hand-shake trick that I could use to prevent this from ever happening again? I have a low expectation of parts these days, and I am assuming that unless I hit the world's biggest deer or an experienced driver, I intend to keep this truck as long as I can.

The truck is a '93 Ford F150 with the 5.8.

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Old 01-16-2009, 01:00 PM
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My first suggestion is to make sure it is a grade 8 bolt.

Second, when installing on any hole into water or oil, it needs a good coat of liquid teflon on the threads inside the hole and on the bolt threads themselves. That seals the water pressure and prevents the bolt from rusting into the block.
Some people use RTV.

All blind holes need copper based anti-seize compound on them.
All bolts, everywhere on an engine, not just spark plugs.
Never leave home without it.

Don't overdo it and put so much stuff into a blind hole that the bolt liquid locks and damages the block/head, etc. A little dab on the first 2-3 threads will work its way on up when the bolt is screwed in. There is only a few thousandths gap.

For those bolts that are into the coolant from rusting, be sure to keep 50/50 anti-freeze and distilled water and change it every 2-3 years. It's only a $20 job.
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Old 01-16-2009, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el pollo
I am in need of any tips,

I have to cut the heads off, pull the cover off and drill and tap everything out.

.
I would just keep twisting until they break. They might accidently come out first. If they break, you have to cut them off anyway, so what?

If a bolt has been torqued that hard coming out, replace it.
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Old 01-16-2009, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoTFrenzel
I would just keep twisting until they break. They might accidently come out first. If they break, you have to cut them off anyway, so what?

If a bolt has been torqued that hard coming out, replace it.
I tried. I even played it on the wild side and used an air ratchet. The bolt turns, it just doesn't advance out of the block.

Quote:
All blind holes need copper based anti-seize compound on them. All bolts, everywhere on an engine, not just spark plugs. Never leave home without it.
This is a good idea. I almost did this when I replaced the bolts, but the guy at the hardware store looked at me like I had two heads when I suggested this. Now I know I should have gone with my gut feeling.

As for the coolant change every 2-3 years, I'll do that too. Maybe I'll do it once a year, as I do the same with the plugs. I'll jsut get it done the same day.

Thanks for the advice. Once the bolts are out, I'll definitely coat the bolts a bit so I don't have to repeat this mess.
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Old 01-16-2009, 03:01 PM
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shorter bolts?

It also seems to me that it would be good not to have the bolt protrude into the water jacket where that end can rust / swell up / etc... use a bolt just long enough to grab all of the threads, but no longer. (Any longer doesn't add any strength anyway.)
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Old 01-16-2009, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el pollo
I tried. I even played it on the wild side and used an air ratchet. The bolt turns, it just doesn't advance out of the block.

.
Of course you might have to heli-coil the block if the block is stripped. Maybe it will be a stripped bolt.


“The vulcan neck pinch is not half as powerful as the vulcan groin kick, but it is more politically correct” ~ spock
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Old 01-16-2009, 09:01 PM
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Old 01-17-2009, 10:17 AM
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351 water pump, as wellas 289 302s

4jaw and 151 have the solution, you must use the corect length bolts ,the non blind ones are the worst, also dont use a grad 8 as they will be very difficult to drill out and more prone to rusting in non blind holes, cliff
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Old 01-17-2009, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliff tate
4jaw and 151 have the solution, you must use the corect length bolts ,the non blind ones are the worst, also dont use a grad 8 as they will be very difficult to drill out and more prone to rusting in non blind holes, cliff
Has anybody ever measured the length for bolts in that situation?

The grade bolts that I get are plated, and if you coat the ends then the water doesn't touch them. Just like coating "freeze plugs".
If it doesn't rust, then you don't have to drill it out.

JMO
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:33 PM
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I have a dumb idea, and would like to run it by you all. If this is an issue, would it be feasible to just run a stud through the bolt holes and have the pump secured with a nut on the end? I'd understand if you all think this is a stupid idea.

As for the bolts, I think I got grade 5 bolts. And they were either galvanized or anodized. Heck, they could have just been bare bolts.

I hope that I won't have to heli-coil the block. The bolt that did come out ( a total of three were a pain. One came out, the other two did not) showed signs of deteriorated threads on the bolt.

Tomorrow morning I get to start round two. I have a buddy coming out to assist me in getting this done without anymore issues.
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoTFrenzel

Second, when installing on any hole into water or oil, it needs a good coat of liquid teflon on the threads inside the hole and on the bolt threads themselves. That seals the water pressure and prevents the bolt from rusting into the block.
Some people use RTV.

All blind holes need copper based anti-seize compound on them.
All bolts, everywhere on an engine, not just spark plugs.
Never leave home without it.

Don't overdo it and put so much stuff into a blind hole that the bolt liquid locks and damages the block/head, etc. A little dab on the first 2-3 threads will work its way on up when the bolt is screwed in. There is only a few thousandths gap.

For those bolts that are into the coolant from rusting, be sure to keep 50/50 anti-freeze and distilled water and change it every 2-3 years. It's only a $20 job.

Do this and you should not have any problems.
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Old 01-18-2009, 09:24 AM
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Well, I just dodged a huge bullet. The bolts weren't spinning in the block, as I originally thought. They came out of the block, and the threaded portion was stuck in the timing cover. I pulled out all of the other bolts, removed all the hoses, and lifted the pump out. The bolts are toast, but the threads in the block are in good order. Right now I am just waiting for Ace Hardware to open up, because they are the only ones who have the bolts I need.

I did pick up some Permatex Indian Head Gasket Shellac Compound from Advance this morning. It was the only thing I saw that could survive the water jacket environment. I just have to paint up the bolt ends, wait for it to dry, and bolt everything back together.

Yup, I dodged a huge bullet! Thanks for the advice though everyone. I wouldn't have thought to coat the bolts with anything otherwise.
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Old 01-18-2009, 10:38 AM
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The proper nickle based NevrSieze will solve the problem forever. When I was a Ford mechanic this was standard procedure on a water pump change out. We never ever used grade 8 bolts, that is just asking for trouble.

Vince
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Old 01-18-2009, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302 Z28
The proper nickle based NevrSieze will solve the problem forever. When I was a Ford mechanic this was standard procedure on a water pump change out. We never ever used grade 8 bolts, that is just asking for trouble.

Vince
Yeah the ones I replaced them with weren't grade 8 bolts. As for the NevrSeize, I couldn't find any locally, so I went with the Permatex stuff instead. The label says it's specifically designed for uses like this.
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Old 01-18-2009, 01:57 PM
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You will not find NeverSieze at an Auto parts store. You will find it an industrial supply house. The one I use is a Nicklel formula, but made by the same company as the one above.


Vince

Last edited by 302 Z28; 01-18-2009 at 02:04 PM.
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