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Old 08-07-2008, 11:08 AM
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Ford 428 FE smoking....#1 cylinder only

My 428 smokes out the right side only. Happens when I accelerate, or even tap the gas in neutral. I have narrowed it down to #1 cylinder. Here's the facts:

The engine does NOT smoke until after it starts to warm up. Once warmed up, it puffs out these huge clouds on acceleration....right side only. Once fully warmed up, there is a little smoke continuously there at idle, as well as the huge clouds when I open the carb(s).

Except for #1, all plugs look like new, .....white porcelin with a bit of tan showing. #1 has porcelin the colour of battleship gray and the center elctrode was a bit wet with what I think is oil.

Engine has about 3000 miles on it. A compression test shows 195 to 200 psi in all cylinders, which is how it tested after the rebuild.

If I disconnect the sparkplug wire from #1 cylinder, the smoking completely stops.

The smoke is white/gray...sometimes yellowish just at the side-pipe, but smells like exhaust (burns the eyes and hangs in the air for a long time). I really do not think it is water (steam). I thought oil smoke was usually blue, but maybe not, as I am running synthetic.

I removed the valve cover and changed the valve seals for #1 cylinder. They are the positive type. Anyway, no change after changing seals. Oh.....no side-to-side play with the valves. Look fine in their bronze guides.

Changed the intake manifold gaskets. Used sealer around all the ports this time, not just the water passages. No change. Interestingly, I did see oil around the #1 intake port inside of the gasket opening. Seemed a bit "damp" looking peering back inot the manifold as well. Visually checke the manifold (aluminum) for cracks. Couldn't find any.

I tried sort of a home-made leak-down test. I pressurized the cylinder to 40+ psi and measured the time for the pressure to drop from 40 to zero. It did seem quicker in #1, but I really wasn't getting consistency between any of the cylinders, even though I put each one at its TDC for the test. I may try to make a real leak-down tester. Just a couple of gauges, a 0.040" , 1/4" long restrictor and some plumbing bits and pieces.

I was tinkering with the timing. I moved it from 10BTDC to 15BTDC when I disscovered my max total advance was only 24 degrees. After I did that, the smoke was way worse. No surprise as I'm sure intake manifold vacumm increased quite a bit with the ignition timing increase, therefore sucking in more oil, fuel, water....whatever.

Oh......I use twin Holley's on a single plane divided plenum manifold. I can't see how it could be a problem. Even if it was puddling fuel on the manifold floor, more than one cylinder should be affected. But I mention it anyway just in case.

Basically, I have to take things back apart. Since I used gasket sealer around all ports this time (not just the water passage), the gaskets should be stuck pretty good. If there's an area of the gasket that's not stuck, it indicates oil got by.

I think the problem is beyond internet help as even if I made a video, you couldn't smell the smoke.....LOL. It definately smells like exhaust and burns the eyes (and it's more gray than white, sometimes yellowish). SO.....if I don't find anything after stripping down the manifold (again...sigh), I'll take that cylinder head off and check the gasket. If I still can't find anything, I'll have to jack the car up, remove the oil pan, and remove #1 con-rod cap, pull the piston, and inspect the cylinder and rings.

Any thoughts out there before I start tearing things apart? I appreciate any thoughts on the matter. Thank-you.


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Old 08-07-2008, 11:43 AM
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Hi Argess,

I do believe you have a ring problem, the oil wiper ring to be exact, as you have eliminated the other possible causes.
Rich
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Old 08-07-2008, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argess
My 428 smokes out the right side only. Happens when I accelerate, or even tap the gas in neutral. I have narrowed it down to #1 cylinder. Here's the facts:

The engine does NOT smoke until after it starts to warm up. Once warmed up, it puffs out these huge clouds on acceleration....right side only. Once fully warmed up, there is a little smoke continuously there at idle, as well as the huge clouds when I open the carb(s).

Except for #1, all plugs look like new, .....white porcelin with a bit of tan showing. #1 has porcelin the colour of battleship gray and the center elctrode was a bit wet with what I think is oil.

Engine has about 3000 miles on it. A compression test shows 195 to 200 psi in all cylinders, which is how it tested after the rebuild.

If I disconnect the sparkplug wire from #1 cylinder, the smoking completely stops.

The smoke is white/gray...sometimes yellowish just at the side-pipe, but smells like exhaust (burns the eyes and hangs in the air for a long time). I really do not think it is water (steam). I thought oil smoke was usually blue, but maybe not, as I am running synthetic.

I removed the valve cover and changed the valve seals for #1 cylinder. They are the positive type. Anyway, no change after changing seals. Oh.....no side-to-side play with the valves. Look fine in their bronze guides.

Changed the intake manifold gaskets. Used sealer around all the ports this time, not just the water passages. No change. Interestingly, I did see oil around the #1 intake port inside of the gasket opening. Seemed a bit "damp" looking peering back inot the manifold as well. Visually checke the manifold (aluminum) for cracks. Couldn't find any.

I tried sort of a home-made leak-down test. I pressurized the cylinder to 40+ psi and measured the time for the pressure to drop from 40 to zero. It did seem quicker in #1, but I really wasn't getting consistency between any of the cylinders, even though I put each one at its TDC for the test. I may try to make a real leak-down tester. Just a couple of gauges, a 0.040" , 1/4" long restrictor and some plumbing bits and pieces.

I was tinkering with the timing. I moved it from 10BTDC to 15BTDC when I disscovered my max total advance was only 24 degrees. After I did that, the smoke was way worse. No surprise as I'm sure intake manifold vacumm increased quite a bit with the ignition timing increase, therefore sucking in more oil, fuel, water....whatever.

Oh......I use twin Holley's on a single plane divided plenum manifold. I can't see how it could be a problem. Even if it was puddling fuel on the manifold floor, more than one cylinder should be affected. But I mention it anyway just in case.

Basically, I have to take things back apart. Since I used gasket sealer around all ports this time (not just the water passage), the gaskets should be stuck pretty good. If there's an area of the gasket that's not stuck, it indicates oil got by.

I think the problem is beyond internet help as even if I made a video, you couldn't smell the smoke.....LOL. It definately smells like exhaust and burns the eyes (and it's more gray than white, sometimes yellowish). SO.....if I don't find anything after stripping down the manifold (again...sigh), I'll take that cylinder head off and check the gasket. If I still can't find anything, I'll have to jack the car up, remove the oil pan, and remove #1 con-rod cap, pull the piston, and inspect the cylinder and rings.

Any thoughts out there before I start tearing things apart? I appreciate any thoughts on the matter. Thank-you.

Oil smoke tends toward blue whether synthictic or not and usually doesn't attack the eyes any more than LA smog. Coolant, where glycols are involved are nasty to the eyes, nose and throat, they tend to be white to gray in color.

If it stops when you pull the plug I'd expect to see some king of liquid eventually running out the exhaust pipe or stack.

When it comes to oil, smoke on idle that goes away as speed picks up is usually guides. Smoke on accereration and with a dropped throttle while coasting is usually rings, though the latter will also happen with guides. However there are ring problems that don't conform to these generalities, but these are usually the result of incorrect assembly, like getting a ring upside down or a ring that has broken but is still in its piston land.

Incompatible hone texture to ring materail type, or cracks in the piston or cylinderwall also have odd features that don't fit the general assumptions about oil smoke.

I'm thinking you'll have to do a deep dive to find this. I'm inclined to think your gonna find a coolant leak into the cylinder from somewhere.

Bogie
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Old 08-07-2008, 02:23 PM
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Thanks for the replies guys. Actually, this site was recommended to me by one of your members. He was trying to help me with this problem on another site.

Coolant. That's been the consensus. All coolant leaks I ever had wound up with a cylinder full, or partly full of coolant at some point. Water in the oil was frequent as well. Nothing like that this time.....so far, but perhaps the leak is only there when the engine is hot and the coolant pressure is up.

My original thoughts have been matched once, and that was the intake manifold gasket. No success with that route.

Other thoughts were a cracked intake manifold or head. A very close inspection will be coming.

If it turns out to be a coolant leak, it won't be from the water passage next to the intake port gasket area. When I removed the old gasket, it was firmly stuck all around the port with gasket shellac.

So perhaps a head gasket. I already changed this head gasket once. Turns out I had bought some "economy" Fel-pro head gasket......terrible gasket....big holes between the metal cylinder ring part of the gasket and the paper. And of course I got a coolant leak. I put in Fel-pro performance gaskets.....P/N 1020 I think it was...and no problem since...er....well......maybe. Last time it was leaking into #2 cylinder. I could see the stains on the head gasket from that leak.

As I start the tear-down, I will look very closely to see what I can see. If I get to the head gasket, and still nothing, I'll have to take off the pan (major nuiscance with windage tray, etc.) and pull the piston to check the rings and cylinder walls.

Not sure about the oil ring. I installed them.....top and bottom about an inch right and left of the corrugated part gap, which I think I aligned with the wrist pin. Hard to visualize what could go wrong with an oil ring, but things happen.

LOL.....a long time ago I owned a 54 Chev pick-up with a 235 in it (I think that was the size). Smoked blue like a brush fire when you put a load on it. Teardown revealed broken compression rings......each in in two or three pieces, and in most cylinders. Amazing that engine ran at all!!!
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Old 08-07-2008, 02:47 PM
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Old 08-08-2008, 09:31 AM
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428 1 hole smoker...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argess
My 428 smokes out the right side only. Happens when I accelerate, or even tap the gas in neutral. I have narrowed it down to #1 cylinder. Here's the facts:

The engine does NOT smoke until after it starts to warm up. Once warmed up, it puffs out these huge clouds on acceleration....right side only. Once fully warmed up, there is a little smoke continuously there at idle, as well as the huge clouds when I open the carb(s).

Except for #1, all plugs look like new, .....white porcelin with a bit of tan showing. #1 has porcelin the colour of battleship gray and the center elctrode was a bit wet with what I think is oil.

Engine has about 3000 miles on it. A compression test shows 195 to 200 psi in all cylinders, which is how it tested after the rebuild.


If I disconnect the sparkplug wire from #1 cylinder, the smoking completely stops.

The smoke is white/gray...sometimes yellowish just at the side-pipe, but smells like exhaust (burns the eyes and hangs in the air for a long time). I really do not think it is water (steam). I thought oil smoke was usually blue, but maybe not, as I am running synthetic.

I removed the valve cover and changed the valve seals for #1 cylinder. They are the positive type. Anyway, no change after changing seals. Oh.....no side-to-side play with the valves. Look fine in their bronze guides.

Changed the intake manifold gaskets. Used sealer around all the ports this time, not just the water passages. No change. Interestingly, I did see oil around the #1 intake port inside of the gasket opening. Seemed a bit "damp" looking peering back inot the manifold as well. Visually checke the manifold (aluminum) for cracks. Couldn't find any.

I tried sort of a home-made leak-down test. I pressurized the cylinder to 40+ psi and measured the time for the pressure to drop from 40 to zero. It did seem quicker in #1, but I really wasn't getting consistency between any of the cylinders, even though I put each one at its TDC for the test. I may try to make a real leak-down tester. Just a couple of gauges, a 0.040" , 1/4" long restrictor and some plumbing bits and pieces.

I was tinkering with the timing. I moved it from 10BTDC to 15BTDC when I disscovered my max total advance was only 24 degrees. After I did that, the smoke was way worse. No surprise as I'm sure intake manifold vacumm increased quite a bit with the ignition timing increase, therefore sucking in more oil, fuel, water....whatever.

Oh......I use twin Holley's on a single plane divided plenum manifold. I can't see how it could be a problem. Even if it was puddling fuel on the manifold floor, more than one cylinder should be affected. But I mention it anyway just in case.

Basically, I have to take things back apart. Since I used gasket sealer around all ports this time (not just the water passage), the gaskets should be stuck pretty good. If there's an area of the gasket that's not stuck, it indicates oil got by.

I think the problem is beyond internet help as even if I made a video, you couldn't smell the smoke.....LOL. It definately smells like exhaust and burns the eyes (and it's more gray than white, sometimes yellowish). SO.....if I don't find anything after stripping down the manifold (again...sigh), I'll take that cylinder head off and check the gasket. If I still can't find anything, I'll have to jack the car up, remove the oil pan, and remove #1 con-rod cap, pull the piston, and inspect the cylinder and rings.

Any thoughts out there before I start tearing things apart? I appreciate any thoughts on the matter. Thank-you.

__________________________________________________ _____________

Since You are going to tare it down...
After taking the Intake off. pull the Pass. head off first Check the Valve Seals & Guides. Hope it is a Seal Riding the Stem.
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Old 08-08-2008, 11:58 AM
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Yes, I was hoping it was the valve seals, but I changed them (on #1 cylinder) and the problem was still there.

I am starting to suspect I have misdiagnosed this. Many people are suggesting it is a coolant leak, and I am starting to agree. White smoke....yep, usually coolant, but no sweet antifreeze smell. As above, Oldbogie description of antifreeze smoke matches up with what I see. Plus, there is a large water passage next to #1 cylinder.

Guess I am used to coolant leaks where the cylinder has antifreeze in it. Pull the plug, crank the engine, and antifreeze gets shot out. Not in this case....so far. Also, "smoke" from pure water is really steam and dissapates quickly, but you only get that on cold mornings due to condinsation during the night. So I guess this thick "hang-around" smoke may really be coolant vs oil.

So....hopefully I can start on the teardown Monday.

By the way, Fel-Pro (amongst others) do not recommend sealant on their head gaskets. However, I wonder if a bit of gasket shellac (the stuff like molasses) around the water passage gasket holes would be a good idea......hmmm. Any comments?
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Old 08-08-2008, 12:39 PM
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428...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argess
Yes, I was hoping it was the valve seals, but I changed them (on #1 cylinder) and the problem was still there.

I am starting to suspect I have misdiagnosed this. Many people are suggesting it is a coolant leak, and I am starting to agree. White smoke....yep, usually coolant, but no sweet antifreeze smell. As above, Oldbogie description of antifreeze smoke matches up with what I see. Plus, there is a large water passage next to #1 cylinder.

Guess I am used to coolant leaks where the cylinder has antifreeze in it. Pull the plug, crank the engine, and antifreeze gets shot out. Not in this case....so far. Also, "smoke" from pure water is really steam and dissapates quickly, but you only get that on cold mornings due to condinsation during the night. So I guess this thick "hang-around" smoke may really be coolant vs oil.

So....hopefully I can start on the teardown Monday.

By the way, Fel-Pro (amongst others) do not recommend sealant on their head gaskets. However, I wonder if a bit of gasket shellac (the stuff like molasses) around the water passage gasket holes would be a good idea......hmmm. Any comments?
************************************************** *****

I'm Blueprinting a '67 Merc. 428 c.i. I have 2X4 Intake Alu. too.
Please keep me informed on your Project.
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Old 08-08-2008, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argess
Yes, I was hoping it was the valve seals, but I changed them (on #1 cylinder) and the problem was still there.

I am starting to suspect I have misdiagnosed this. Many people are suggesting it is a coolant leak, and I am starting to agree. White smoke....yep, usually coolant, but no sweet antifreeze smell. As above, Oldbogie description of antifreeze smoke matches up with what I see. Plus, there is a large water passage next to #1 cylinder.

Guess I am used to coolant leaks where the cylinder has antifreeze in it. Pull the plug, crank the engine, and antifreeze gets shot out. Not in this case....so far. Also, "smoke" from pure water is really steam and dissapates quickly, but you only get that on cold mornings due to condinsation during the night. So I guess this thick "hang-around" smoke may really be coolant vs oil.

So....hopefully I can start on the teardown Monday.

By the way, Fel-Pro (amongst others) do not recommend sealant on their head gaskets. However, I wonder if a bit of gasket shellac (the stuff like molasses) around the water passage gasket holes would be a good idea......hmmm. Any comments?
************************************************** *****
Any comments: I use Axle Grease, where Sticky not required.
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Old 08-08-2008, 01:42 PM
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If you are using the good blue ($$$$) Fel-Pro gaskets you should not need any sealant. They are coated with something(Teflon?) to allow them to move a bit. The raised blue lines (silicone?) around the water passages does the sealing. The only place that I do use a sealant is on the intake gasket and that only around the big front water passage holes. I use the Fel-Pro spray-on stuff (almost like a contact cement) there. So far - never a leak, but......

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Old 08-08-2008, 02:18 PM
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Fe smoking

On the Ford Fe engines you can distort the cylinder wall if you use bolts on the front of the engine that are too long. I forget which one but it will go thru the water jacket and push against the cylinder and distort it and cause ring problems and a hot spot. that can cause ring failure and oil burning in the front cylinder......RETIRED FORD ENGINEER
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Old 08-08-2008, 04:15 PM
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I've really appreciated and enjoyed all the help......until now Timothale!!!! Yikes, that sounds awful. I'll check it out though. Thank-you.

Truthfully, I've never heard anything about using a shorter bolt in the front of one of these engines.

Here's a pic of the gasket.

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...-1&showValue=1

See the triangular hole at the left end? That's the water passage.....not much gasket between it and the #1 cylinder. No oil passages anywhere near it either. I'm hoping for a simple head gasket failure.....
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Old 08-08-2008, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argess
I've really appreciated and enjoyed all the help......until now Timothale!!!! Yikes, that sounds awful. I'll check it out though. Thank-you.

Truthfully, I've never heard anything about using a shorter bolt in the front of one of these engines.

Here's a pic of the gasket.

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...-1&showValue=1

See the triangular hole at the left end? That's the water passage.....not much gasket between it and the #1 cylinder. No oil passages anywhere near it either. I'm hoping for a simple head gasket failure.....
The head bolt change is between the 1960 and earlier blocks to 1961 and later blocks. The 60 and older blocks use a 4-7/32s bolt everywhere for head retention. The 61 and newer blocks use two different head bolt lengths which are also different lengths from the earlier engines with 4-19/32s bolts on the intake side, with 2-7/8s bolts on the exhaust side.

Bogie
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Old 08-09-2008, 12:14 PM
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If the heads and/or block were not resurfaced, a head gasket leak is likely. The FE heads also crack between the spark plug hole and the intake valve seat.

tom
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Old 08-09-2008, 03:10 PM
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Generally with coolant leaking into the cylinder the plug will be very clean not dirtier. I would get a coolant system presure tester and test the system with the engine cold and then warm it up and test it again. If you need to tear it apart the gaskets may tell a story, if not and you can get that one piston out I would take a hard look at the oil ring. I also remember something about the wrong bolt into the front of the block distorting the cylinder as noted above


Chet
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