Ford brakes - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Suspension - Brakes - Steering
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2008, 06:13 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 88
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ford brakes

My buddy has a 69 Torino with factory front disc brakes. We were bleeding the brakes yesterday and I noticed fluid leaking form a little brass tube sort of part with a O-ring around it that is right to the right of the master cylinder above the distribution block (about the size of a cigar) for the brake lines,what is this thing? Is it rebuildable (seems all it is is some o-rings and a spring once you take it apart)
are new ones available ? Im not educated with Fords and the factory shop manual dosent really help. Thanks

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2008, 10:26 AM
Irelands child's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Ford engine specifications Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 4,989
Wiki Edits: 8

Thanks: 20
Thanked 245 Times in 220 Posts
Anthony,
If possible, get us a picture - I had a '68 and really have no recollection of that device on my 1 year older car - and that car of mine ate brakes ( it was a 390GT so was front heavy) so am "trained"

Dave W
__________________
Irelands child
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2008, 11:02 AM
Arrowhead's Avatar
EFI Rules and Carbs Drool
 
Last wiki edit: The FREE T Bucket plans
Last journal entry: Sold Everything for a new project
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Stillwater, NY
Age: 50
Posts: 913
Wiki Edits: 5

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
I believe that's the proportioning valve. The older versions were external like what you have. In '70, they changed to an intergral proportioning valve with the distribution block.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2008, 12:03 PM
Irelands child's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Ford engine specifications Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 4,989
Wiki Edits: 8

Thanks: 20
Thanked 245 Times in 220 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrowhead
I believe that's the proportioning valve. The older versions were external like what you have. In '70, they changed to an intergral proportioning valve with the distribution block.
Probably right but my '68 was bolted to the frame -
__________________
Irelands child
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2008, 01:25 PM
woodz428's Avatar
Troll Hunter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Philo,Il
Posts: 2,701
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
That is referred to as a "dynamite stick". It was used in 1969 and maybe '70. They are rebuildable, but not by the average "joe". They have services that rebuild them. The hard part, and I speak from experience, is getting one opened up. I have a couple, and can't get any of them apart. As I type this I know they weren't on the '70s, I have 2 and neither has one. They were a poportioning valve and there was a separate block that contained the brake failure switch. They were later integrated. I believe that was when Disc brakes were still an option and it was a way to keep the distribution block and switch that was used on the drum brake cars. Unless you are doing a restoration an aftermarket adjustable one can be plumbed in. I would still keep the original, for later on. One of my customers had one of his rebuilt and he probably got the name from Hemmings or one of the "Classic Mustang" publications. If you need the info send me a PM and I'll get it from him.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2008, 01:34 PM
woodz428's Avatar
Troll Hunter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Philo,Il
Posts: 2,701
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Irelands Child, you probably didn't notice it. I think they were probably on all of the disc brake cars from the mid 60s and until '70 when they were integrated. I just looked at a '68 Torino GT(390),your post triggered it since I thought it should have, that's at the shop and it has one.It was original owner with 57,XXX miles on it when my apprentice picked it up several months ago. It's not obvious unless you know what to look for. It is plumbed into the line and runs between the distribution block and the inner fender sheet metal. It's maybe 1"(possibly smaller) in diameter and about 3" long. On the Mustangs they are prominent since they don't have the amount of space in that area as the Mid sized cars do.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2008, 02:34 PM
Irelands child's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Ford engine specifications Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 4,989
Wiki Edits: 8

Thanks: 20
Thanked 245 Times in 220 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodz428
Irelands Child, you probably didn't notice it. I think they were probably on all of the disc brake cars from the mid 60s and until '70 when they were integrated. I just looked at a '68 Torino GT(390),your post triggered it since I thought it should have, that's at the shop and it has one.It was original owner with 57,XXX miles on it when my apprentice picked it up several months ago. It's not obvious unless you know what to look for. It is plumbed into the line and runs between the distribution block and the inner fender sheet metal. It's maybe 1"(possibly smaller) in diameter and about 3" long. On the Mustangs they are prominent since they don't have the amount of space in that area as the Mid sized cars do.
Since I have long shed myself of that car, I will of course quietly go away

Interesting, especially since I changed lots of brake/front end parts on my car that I didn't see/remember it in the 95K miles I owned it(from new).

I do have to say that with the 390 stuck in there, a lot of pieces get hidden - i.e., the 2 spark plugs directly under the master cylinder/booster, 7&8. I still have scars on my hands from changing them - especially before the air pump lines 'magically' disappeared one afternoon

Dave W
__________________
Irelands child
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2008, 03:06 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 88
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thats it (dynamite stick) . I got it apart it unscrews with a 5/16-IIRC wrench
there is some o-rings in there 4 different sizes . It looks like I can just replace the o-rings but where do I get o-rings that brake fluid wont destroy?
If I got an after market one from say stainless steel brakes what size would I need they offer 2 LB and 10 lb and would this work?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2008, 05:58 PM
woodz428's Avatar
Troll Hunter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Philo,Il
Posts: 2,701
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Maybe I did get them apart, I didn't recall it...but since it wasn't for my car, I think that the owner had another or had his rebuilt. The pressures you mention are reference to a residual valve,I'll have to go back and check but think what you have is a proportioning valve...2 different animals. The residual valves are primarily for keeping fluid from returning to the master cylinder when the master is below the floor. The proportioning valve allows pressure to "balance" between the front and rears becasue the disc require more pressure.Otherwise the rear drums would lock up before the pressure was high enough to work the discs. You need an adjustable proportioning valve, Stainless as well as virtually every other parts company that deals in brake parts does. I wouldn't even be surprised if they aren't available from the local parts store...whatever flavor it may be. An adjustable, for me, is a better system because you can adjust how much front/rear bias you want. It allows you to make the rears lock sooner of later and helps promote better stopping. Factory ones are preset, because it's cheaper and the variance is minimal in a factory car.Stainless may sell an exact replacement, but I'd have to look in their catalog. I know they as well as others sell the adjustable ones for app. (depending on brand name label), $30-65.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2008, 07:10 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 88
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
This particular part has only two lines going to it from the (what I think is the proportioning valve) . Dosent the proportioning valve have all the lines going to it? Im just not familiar with Fords I have never seen this part before,my chevy's have nothing like that. JEGS sells a residual valve thats ten pounds for drum brakes. I would order it but I want to make sure its the right thing now. on the SSBC website they say the 2 lbs one is for Street Rods that have the master under the car and the ten pound one is for drum brakes. It looks like a residual valve.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2008, 07:21 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 88
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
http://www.torinocobra.com/forum/vie...idual&start=15

I found a picture of it ! If you look at the very end of this post you will see the enging compartment of a 69 torino the proportiong valve and the brass looking thing behind it-that the problem part.It is the residual valve. Thanks for the help guys, very much.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2008, 08:38 AM
woodz428's Avatar
Troll Hunter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Philo,Il
Posts: 2,701
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'm going to check out my manuals today, but am pretty sure that part is a Pproportioning valve not a residual valve. Typically you need 2 residual valves if you need any, one on the fronts and one on the rears. I think you'll find that holds the pressure to the rear brakes until the fronts start to build a certain amount of pressure, the function of a proportioning valve. I will get back to this thread after I look at my books. I wouldn't install a residual valve since that is unlikely what it is.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2008, 09:20 AM
woodz428's Avatar
Troll Hunter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Philo,Il
Posts: 2,701
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
O.K., I went and researched through several '60s era manuals...including a Mustang one. That is NOT a residual valve, it IS a proportioning valve. It is marked like all of them with an R for rear. It's possible the guy on that forum installed it backwards. Let me explain the components in the system, since many people are unfamiliar. Currently, and Ford started in 1970, the distribution block as well as the differential switch and proportioning valve are all integrated into one unit. That did not used to be the case. When they went to a dual master cylinder in about '67 they installed a differential valve into the distribution block. That signals a light on the dash when one side has a higher pressure than the other, usually when there is a failure. Since most brakes were drum at the time, there was no proportioning valve in it. It was just a distribution block and differential valve/switch. When Disc brakes were optioned they installed(this is Ford, I can't vouch for how other manufacturers did it, but probably similar), they installed the "dynamite" stick which is the proportioning valve. It was plumbed into the rear line and allowed the pressure in the discs to get high enough to work without locking up the drums which need a lower pressure. Drums are self energizing and discs aren't.If they go bad, usually sticking/stuck, the front brakes tend to do all the stopping as little pressure is getting to the rears. In your case it's leaking. You can have that rebuilt or, as I suggested earlier, get an adjustable one, making sure to install it correctly or it won't function as it should. If you insist on getting a residual valve to replace it, a couple of things will occur. The most severe thing is that you will start locking up your rear brakes every time you try to stop. That is very dangerous as well as being a good way to soil your underwear. While residual valves are less expensive, by more than half, their function is entirely different. They keep "residual" pressure in the line so that you don't have to pump the brakes, they are not used on cars with the master on the firewall, as I said they are for masters under the floor.The reason they come in 2 pressures is that drum brakes have springs that return them and discs only use the seal/boot flex to pull them back, hence the drum ones require a higher residual valve. With the comments on the forum you linked to, I am pretty sure that they had no idea what they were doing and probably installed the adjustable proportioning valve backwards. I use these items, both residual and adjustable proportiong valves regularly and have never had the issues mentioned. So....if you wish to correct the problem get an adjustable proportioning valve...if you wish to save some $$ and do it it incorrectly, buy a residual valve...and hold on, because you are likely to get the ***** scared out of you the first time you try a panic stop.

Last edited by woodz428; 07-23-2008 at 01:03 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2008, 07:31 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 88
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ok I hear ya, thank you for doing that research as the factory shop manual for the car dosent have squat in it about the thing. Next question I have that maybe you can help me with is what O-rings are sutible to rebuild that thing with? I asked in my local NAPA and they didnt seem to know,I know Viton is sutible for gasoline but that dosent really tell me any thing. What about the green A/C ones ? What other car was this dynamite stick installed on? Maybe I can contact a place that specializes in what ever kind of car that may be. I will get an adjustable proportioning valve if I cant rebuild.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2008, 09:13 PM
woodz428's Avatar
Troll Hunter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Philo,Il
Posts: 2,701
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I imagine that virtually every Ford from the mid 60s until they integrated it into the distribution block in 1970. I know that Mustangs from 1967 until 1969 did,including Shelby's( that would include 1970 Shelby's too since they are re-badged left over '69's). If you look at Hemmings, they have an online publication now, in the services section you will find several that offer rebuild services/parts. I might have it rebuilt instead of replacing the seal. It will cost more than an aftermarket adjustable one, but as I suggested, unless you are "restoring" it you will probably find the adjustable one a better piece. If the seal is leaking, which I haven't seen before, I would imagine that someone else has opened it and there may be other issues inside that you wouldn't be aware of. Usually they get stuck or act sluggish,making the front brakes do more of the work. If you have an automatic car it can cause the rear wheels to continue pushing while the fronts are trying to drag it down. Just my .02.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Suspension - Brakes - Steering posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Buick brakes on Ford spindles??? adavis007 Suspension - Brakes - Steering 3 02-03-2007 07:02 PM
Ford Steel Wheel Tech wheelkid General Rodding Tech 9 01-07-2007 07:31 PM
9 inch ford home made disc brakes zonk Suspension - Brakes - Steering 6 06-02-2006 01:31 PM
Front drum "juice" brakes on a 32 Ford 32Steel Suspension - Brakes - Steering 9 03-03-2004 05:29 PM
Whatever happend to these guys? hot_rod_kid Hotrodders' Lounge 20 12-17-2002 10:20 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.