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Old 11-12-2004, 10:47 PM
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Ford C-6 Updated, new tranny, new problem...

Hey Guys,

I have ran into a problem with my truck. It is a 81 F-150 4x4 w/ 351M/C-6/NP208.

THe tranny has always been slow to engage into gear (any gear), usually taking about a full second or two. But rigt when i was parking it at a friends house today, it seemed to slip, the engage, and slip and engage, then nothing. I tried selecting all the gears, the tranny would not shift (or at least i couldn't feel it) and it would just free rev. My shift linkage is working fine, and there is ATF coming out from where my tranny meets then engine, dripping from in between the dust cover and the tranny bellhousing.


My first guess is that the torque converter is shot, and leaked all its fluid out.

Second is that the seal on the input shaft of the tranny is shot, whick would be a PITA.

What are your guys' thoughts/recommendations?
Is my tranny toast, or fixable.

How exaqctly could a torque converter wear out? Isn't it just fluid getting pumped against fins???

Thanks in advance,

Mike

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Last edited by offroadin; 11-15-2004 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 11-13-2004, 07:02 AM
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Yes fluid in a convertor does just pump through fins.
There are 5 areas that can leak from the front.
1/ pump seal.
2/ pump "O" ring.
3/ pump gasket.
4/ cracked convertor hub.
5/ servo shaft seal.
If there is a no go it is likely there is no or low fluid in the transmission because of the leak.
FYI.
The amount of fluid pumped through a convertor at peak stall is equivalent to 45 - 45 gallon barrels of fluid.
That's 2025 gallons per minute.
So yes technically it does pump fluid.
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Old 11-13-2004, 07:33 AM
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Cool

there are many parts in the converters that can wear out. thrust washers and roller clutches on the non lock up converters.

Late model lock up converters would surprise you by the number of parts in them.

Fliud is constantly flowing into and out of the converter during operation.

Your comment about the converter "leaking it's fluid out and now the vehicle does not move" ..... indicates to me you know nothing about how the tranny functions. You need to find a qualified tranny person to avoid spending money on the wrong solutions to your tranny problems.

Is the tranny full of fluid as the vehicle sits on level ground, engine running , tranny in park?
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Old 11-13-2004, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by stu

There are 5 areas that can leak from the front.
1/ pump seal.
2/ pump "O" ring.
3/ pump gasket.
4/ cracked convertor hub.
5/ servo shaft seal.
Stu,

Is there any way to troubleshoot which of these might be the problem without pulling the trans? I've got a very slow leak on my 6C that is showing up in the same place as Offroadin's leak. I was guessing main seal in the engine - but now I'm leaning towards the trans. Not enough of a leak to be detectable on either dip stick yet (motor or trans) so I can't use THAT as a clue.
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Old 11-13-2004, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Is the tranny full of fluid as the vehicle sits on level ground, engine running , tranny in park?
I'd assume not since there was a steady drip coming from it. Its parked at a friends house right now but I'll see when i get there.

Thanks for the information. But how can i narrow it down to what problem it was. Looks like mostly all of the possibilities listed above can be isolated to the torque converter right?

THanks,

Mike
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Old 11-13-2004, 01:02 PM
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If one of those suspect areas are leaking and the vehicle is in my shop they all get repaired.
No if's and's or but's.
The convertor must be removed to tell which one of the items are at fault.
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Old 11-13-2004, 09:05 PM
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Okay. The tranny and Tcase came out tonight. Here's my observations.

Before i pulled it, the dipstick read full cold, but when running in park it didn't show anything.

Converter was almost full, now laying down on the table i can see down the shaft into it, and the fluid level is even with the round casing of the converter.

Seal on input shaft of tranny seems to be in not bad, not cracked or missing. Mating surface on converter has slight scarring, nothing major though.

Couldn't really see any washed areas on the inside of the casing, so i'm not totally sure where the fluid came out of.

Is there any way to visually inspect the TC to see if it is whats leaking?

Any other suggestions?

My Plan for tomorrow is to replace the input seal and look closer at the TC with any new info to decide whether to replace it.

Thanks,
Mike
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Old 11-13-2004, 09:30 PM
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You can't tell how much fluid is in a convertor by just looking.
It has to be charged.
If you are just going to replace the metal seal your efforts will be wasted.
BTW. It isn't called an input shaft seal.
It is a pump seal.
Remove the pump and replace the other items I listed.
The servo pin doesn't leak that often so just an eye ball exam is ok.
You can drain the convertor and pressure check it.
A plug similar to that used in a radiator shop can be placed in the hub and air applied.
While you have the pump out and apart. You are going to do this?
Replace the bushing as well.
When you have this done and are ready to install it I will give you more pointers.
Don't want to overload you.
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Old 11-13-2004, 10:08 PM
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Is replacing the pump seal/O ring/ Pump gasket something your average backyard mechanic can do? Any special tools needed? Special knowledge?

So I'm assuming to do the above i'd just take out the bolts that are in a circle around the pump shaft, and it will pull apart? Where does the pump gasket fit into the picture? Is the o ring right behind the flange with those bolts?

Thank again.

Any more info on the install would be more helpful now as i am not working on it here, so i don't have net access to check after i replaced those parts.
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Old 11-14-2004, 07:00 AM
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This is great offroadin. I've got to pull my C6 and do what you're doing over this winter...so you are sort of the guinea pig on this one. Keep describing how you are doing it step by step (you will make my life much easier come December). Hey, pics would be even better if you've got a digital camera available.

BTW, where are you getting your replacement parts, Ford, or do you have a cheaper after market source?

Dewey
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Old 11-14-2004, 11:06 AM
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Not knowing your talents it is difficult to say if you can do it or not.
Stand the transmission up right.
Remove the pump bolts.
Tap two opposing holes to 3/8 NC thread.
Install slide hammers into the holes.
Push down on the input shaft while pulling up on the slide hammers.
The gasket is between the pump and case.
The "O" ring is around the outside of the pump.
Take the pump apart to replace the bushing and seal.
Install two 5/16 NC guide studs and install the pump.
Simple. Right?
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Old 11-14-2004, 01:09 PM
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Sounds simple enoguh (I do have my 1st year Mech. Eng.)

What are the 5/16 guide studs for and where do they go?

BTW, I will prob get the parts any place i can, probably NAPA or someplace local.
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Old 11-14-2004, 01:42 PM
stu stu is offline
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The guide studs go in two bolt holes to align the pump on assembly into the case.
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Old 11-15-2004, 12:45 AM
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Well,

I kinda took the easy way out on this one. I found another almost identicle tranny and TC for a good deal so i bought it.

I split the t case from my old tranny, made a new gasket, installed the new tranny and TC and then the T case. Flushed and replaced the fluid in the T-Case, blew out the tranny lines.

Tomorrow i will drop the pan and change the fluid and filter.

Also found out along the way that my flywheel was cracked all the way around the bolt circle except for in between 2 bolts. Replaced that and continued.

The fluid in my old tranny was burnt and pure black. I might pull it apart in some spare time just to familiarize myself with the world of auto trannies.

Thanks for all your help,
Mike
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Old 11-15-2004, 08:33 AM
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So much for periodic maintenance.
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