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Old 12-15-2005, 11:16 AM
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Ford with Crane roller rockers

I have a Ford crate motor (5L/302) with the -E303 cam now installed with 1.7 Crane roller rockers rather than the standard bolt down 1.6 stamped steel pieces. A couple of questions that I have are how much "seat of the pants" feel
do you get, but even more important, do you have to change out the push rods (and use guide plates). I seem to have correct contact but not much in the way of lifter compression. Crane would not give me any kind of a definitive answer when I called them (guess that was because it wasn't Chevy).
The heads are GT40P and have the 'recommended' Crane springs.

Anyone had experience with this combination???

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Old 12-15-2005, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child

I have a Ford crate motor (5L/302) with the -E303 cam now installed with 1.7 Crane roller rockers rather than the standard bolt down 1.6 stamped steel pieces.

...do you have to change out the push rods (and use guide plates). I seem to have correct contact but not much in the way of lifter compression.

Crane would not give me any kind of a definitive answer when I called them.

The heads are GT40P and have the 'recommended' Crane springs.
By crate, I assume it is a SEFI roller engine?

What PN rockers did you order? I would assume they need plates and hardened rods.

Lifter Compression means there is little resistance at initial adjustment?
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Old 12-15-2005, 02:54 PM
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Crane roller rockers

Thanks for the reply.
It is an SEFI roller engine, manufactured in 1998

The rockers are the Crane Energizers - p/n 44746-16. I believe that they are identical to the Cobra rockers supplied about 1993 on that particular GT40 head. Neither the Crane instructions nor the Ford refer to plates or hardened pushrods but now is the time to "fix" before the car is completed and the engine has to run. Also, have taken the plastic lifter retainer system and installed the HiPo metal kit

As far as the term lifter compression - I'm a bit sloppy - and should have said preload. It is in spec but barely, i.e. .020 to .030
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Old 12-15-2005, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child

It is an SEFI roller engine, manufactured in 1998

The rockers are the Crane Energizers - p/n 44746-16. I believe that they are identical to the Cobra rockers supplied about 1993 on that particular GT40 head. Neither the Crane instructions nor the Ford refer to plates or hardened pushrods but now is the time to "fix" before the car is completed and the engine has to run. Also, have taken the plastic lifter retainer system and installed the HiPo metal kit

As far as the term lifter compression - I'm a bit sloppy - and should have said preload. It is in spec but barely, i.e. .020 to .030
OK...I see now. It is a non-adjustable valvetrain. The 99170 Shim Kit is supposedly designed to bring the tappet clearances back into spec.

Guides are not required.

Quote:
99170 Pedestal Shim Kit

Crane’s Rocker Arm Pedestal Shim Kit is for use on Ford engines utilizing non-adjustable pedestal mounted rocker arms. The hydraulic lifters in these engines may have excessive preload due to a camshaft change, valve job, head resurfacing, etc.

To cure this problem, without resorting to different (length) pushrods, we offer this pedestal shim kit containing two different thickness shims. These shims are placed between the rocker arm pedestal and the cylinder head, and will reduce the preload by approximately .030”, .060”, or .090”. These will fit the Ford V-8, 255-302, 302 H.O., 351W, 351C, 351M, 400, and 370-429-460 engines.
How are you measuring tappet clearance, by collapsing the tappet on the heel of the cam and measuring the resultant gap? I would verify correct clearances and geometry before using a shim kit.

What clearance value (adjustment gap) are you using and where did you get it?
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Old 12-16-2005, 07:37 AM
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I have used the Crane instruction, 453E, which came with the rockers, Item 6 - the Ford instruction says about the same thing :

Quote
6. To check and adjust the lifter preload, turn the bolt by hand until
there is no clearance between the front roller and the valve stem
and the pushrod is seated in the rocker arm pushrod seat. Slowly
torque the bolt to 18-20 ft/lbs. Since you are pushing down the
plunger in the hydraulic lifter as you torque the bolt, it will probably
take a minute or two for you to get the correct setting. You
should be able to turn the bolt between 1/4 & 1 turn before you
reach the correct torque setting. This will give you the correct lifter
preload of .020" to .060". If you can turn the bolt more than one turn to achieve the proper torque, you will have to shim the
pedestal. Two different thickness shims are provided for each
rocker arm to assist you. A thick shim represents approximately
one turn.
If you cannot turn the bolt at least 1/4 turn after first contact with
the roller and valve stem, you will have to install longer pushrods
to obtain proper hydraulic lifter preload. Pushrods are available in
different lengths, specifically for this purpose. There are many
modifications that may have been made to the engine which will
change the lifter preload, such as a valve job, different camshaft,
or different thickness head gaskets, and factory tolerances can
also affect the lifter preload on stock engines.
Note: You may find that the lifer preload is different between a cylinder's intake and exhaust or between one side of the engine
and the other. Because of this, we recommend you check the
lifter preload on each rocker arm. Unquote


Using this criterea, there is minimum, i.e. .020 preload when I reach the max allowable torque figure. More than 18-20 lb ft will only stretch the bolt beyond its' tensile strength. The shim kit which came with the rockers would only be used if I milled the heads, did an aggressive valve job, or decked the block.
I have a thing about adjustments such as these - I like final settings to be in the midrange, never at the low end.
Again, thanks

Dave
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Old 12-16-2005, 12:02 PM
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Don't you have positive stop rocker arm bolts on this engine?

Quote:
When rebuilding an engine, what can cause Lifter Preload to change?

Almost anything can affect lifter preload. If you do a valve job, surface the block or heads, change the head gasket thickness, or buy a new camshaft, the amount of preload can be affected. Sometimes these changes cancel one another out and your preload stays the same; this is more by luck than design. This is why you must always inspect the amount of preload the lifter has when reassembling the engine and be sure that it is correct.
Quote:
Fast and Easy Way to Check Hydraulic Lifter Preload when using Non-Adjustable Rocker Arms

With the cam, hydraulic lifters and pushrods in place, install your rocker arm assembly. Use the prescribed method in your repair manual and torque down all the valve train bolts in the proper sequence. Pick a cylinder that you are going to check. Hand rotate the engine in its normal direction of rotation until both valves are closed. You are on the compression cycle for that cylinder. (At this position the valve springs are at their least amount of tension making the job a little easier to do.)

Wait a few minutes, allowing the lifters to bleed down. Now, lay a rigid straightedge across the cylinder head, supporting it on the surface of the head where the valve cover gasket would go. Using a metal scribe and the straightedge, carefully scribe a line on both pushrods. Now carefully remove the torque from all valve train bolts, removing any pressure from the pushrods. Wait a few minutes for the pushrod seat in the hydraulic lifter to move back to the neutral position. Carefully scribe a new line on both pushrods.

Measure the distance between the two scribe marks, it represents the amount of lifter preload. If the lines are .020" to .060" apart you have proper lifter preload. If the lines are the same or less than .020" apart you have no, or insufficient, preload. If the lines are further apart than .060", you have excessive lifter preload. To bring your preload into tolerance, use one of the methods described in the next section if necessary, or call the Crane Tech Line for assistance (904/258-6174).

Methods to Adjust for Proper Hydraulic Lifter Preload

There are several different methods for increasing or decreasing the amount of lifter preload, depending on valve train design and how the rocker arm is held onto the cylinder head. Keep in mind that the automotive manufacturers have made changes to the valve train over the years. What may work on one year's engine may not work for another, even though they are basically the same engine. There is one method that universally works on all these engines, change the pushrod length!

Use a longer pushrod to increase preload, a shorter to reduce preload. Crane offers various length pushrods, and offers custom length pushrods. Many methods are illustrated throughout the catalog, here are a few of them: Custom length pushrods Bottleneck stud shims Bridge mount rocker arm shims Pedestal mount rocker arm shims Adjustable pushrods Conversion rocker arm studs "Kool Nut" adjusting nuts Guideplate and rocker arm conversion kits Adjustable rocker arms (both stud and shaft mounted) Replacement guideplates and studs.
-From CRANE TECH SITE

If you have retained the factory Positive Stop System, the only way to ensure proper pre-load is with either different length pushrods or shims (Mickey Mouse). FORD offers .060" undersize and oversize rods for this adjustment. But their pre-load method is completely collapsing the lifter and measuring resultant air gap between the rocker and valve stem. If off, different length pushrods are used on that and/or whatever valves that need the correction.

I prefer this system over adjustable rocker arms for the street as it is easier to arrive at and retain the proper pre-load. Do you have an actual FORD SHOP MANUAL describing a late 5.0L repair procedures?
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Old 12-16-2005, 02:27 PM
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These are positive stop bolt down rockers

Life used to be easy when you had a choice of a flathead with Johnson adjustables or a 312 Y block with a nice (squeaky) shaft and real adjustable rockers - but that dates me along with my P&G Valve Gapper !!!

It looks like Crane may have done a re-think on their procedure with the straight edge method which I will try in a couple of weeks when I again have the engine on a stand. Still a little Micky Mouse but makes more sense. Maybe they had others thinking that the tighten and pray method wasn't too good. I'll try to get in touch with you after I try this "new" method.

As far as a shop manual, my last 5.0 was an '86 GT Mustang and was sold in '94 along with the manual The buyer has gone on to his final resting place.

Dave
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Old 12-16-2005, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child

Life used to be easy when you had a choice of a flathead with Johnson adjustables or a 312 Y block with a nice (squeaky) shaft and real adjustable rockers - but that dates me along with my P&G Valve Gapper !!!
AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH!. You must be an old fart like myself...

Quote:
It looks like Crane may have done a re-think on their procedure with the straight edge method which I will try in a couple of weeks when I again have the engine on a stand. Still a little Micky Mouse but makes more sense. Maybe they had others thinking that the tighten and pray method wasn't too good. I'll try to get in touch with you after I try this "new" method.
I think most of these Tech Advisers you talk to are not overly swift. They give you the wrong information and it can cost you are fortune. What you have is the FORD 5.0L COBRA setup and FORD doesn't spend any extra money to give you adjustables. It will be fine once ajusted correctly.
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Old 12-16-2005, 03:45 PM
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They don't hire car parts vendor tech advisors for much money - so you have to ask questions of others. I will try the straight edge method anyhow, just for yuks when the engine is out next week - the body of the car just got pulled about 30 minutes ago, the rest of the pieces on the frame will be disassembled, a couple of brackets welded on then off to the powder coater !!

As far as being an old fart - I only wish I was as young as what you state you are, but age is only a state of mind. Unfortunately, CRS and senior moments take over occasionally.
Dave
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