[35WINDOW]

It is a fact that GM, Ford and Chrysler are Global Companies, so everyone saying that they are using foreign Parts is moot in my way of seeing things. We all know that Buick is the top selling Car in China, and the Opel is a top seller in many European Countries. In fact, GM sell more Cars overseas than in the U.S. And don't forget Holden-

I just don't get American's sell-out for foreign goods-don't they know about History? What our Forefathers went through, believed in and fought for? We won't even go into Manufacturing in America (and, that is a deep subject).

If Ford, GM and Chrysler products are so bad, why is GM still the number one selling Brand? Why is the F150 the best selling Pickup and the Tundra not selling well? All of this hoo-hah about today's American Cars not being quality is just that -hoo-hah (I'm being nice here). Ford proved that last Year when it won the J.D. Powers Award for best Car in initial quality.

How is it that the Chevrolet Malibu was awarded the "North American Car of the Year"? Why is it that the Cadillac CTS was named Motor Trends "Car of the Year"? Don't forget that the Japanese Automakers subsidize every Jap Car sold in America. Hoo-hah I tell ya.

I cannot believe that we won't do everything possible to save the Big 3-Sweden gave $3.5 billion to stabilize both Volvo and Saab on Dec. 10. Volkswagen has applied to tap into the bank bailout fund set up by Germany for that nation's troubled financial system. And China just lent Chery Automotive $1.5 billion to continue operations.

That's right, other industrialized Countries around the world will be stepping in to ensure that their own automobile industries will still be working when whatever financial downturn we are looking at is finally over. Moreover, they understand that the world's economy is precarious right now, so they aren't demanding that Corporate jets be sold, they aren't demanding new Business Plans to save the individual Companies, and they aren't publicly embarrassing the heads of Honda, Toyota, Mercedes, BMW, VW, Nissan, Renault, and others by demanding that they explain why their profits and sales have dropped suddenly. In the rest of the world, elected officials understand serious downturns in the economy and that the Automotive Industry is cyclical in nature.

Ford has proven that it is a viable Company (remember a few short Years ago when Ford was on the brink?)-they have turned that Company around, and GM is on the way to doing the same.

I find it curious that the Senators of the States that have Jap plants in them are against the Bailout-that Senator Richard Shelby (R-Ala.) is such a huge critic of using taxpayer money to bail out Detroit. Amazing because the state of Alabama has provided hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to lure foreign auto companies to build factories on its soil.

Of course, when Alabama gave Mercedes-Benz $253 million to build a factory there, or about $168,000 per job created, that was considered a good thing. When Honda considered building a new factory there, that was worth $158 million, and Hyundai's Southern site choice forced the state to cough up $234 million more. Again, these were considered wise investments because the promise was that they would create more jobs for the chronically underpaid Alabama workforce. However, in the summer of 2003, Mercedes brought in Polish workers on questionable B-1 work visas to expand the factory because they could be paid far less than the local workforce.

So you had Alabama gifting state tax dollars to Mercedes' factory, only to discover that some of the jobs it created went to much cheaper labor imported from Eastern Europe.

Look at Senator Bob Corker of (R-Tenn.). He is one of those responsible for winning the new Volkswagen factory at a cost of $577 million in tax incentives. Moreover, Tennessee got that factory only because Alabama offered the Germans a mere $385 million.

Mississippi paid $284 million for a new Toyota plant; Kia got $324 million from Georgia. Texas had to fork over only $133 million for Toyota's Tundra plant in San Antonio, while Tennessee gave $197.6 million not for a new Nissan factory but simply so Nissan would move its American headquarters to Nashville. There are other factories ? BMW in South Carolina, Nissan in Mississippi, and so on ? But you get the point.

I find it amazing that this downturn in Car Sales doesn't seem to include Toyota, Nissan and Honda-fact is, they are hurting too, but do you see it in the media? No, and the reason is media bias-this is nothing new, it has been going on for Years. They seem to think the problem only exists in Detroit.

This is all smoke and mirrors folks and the greater American public are sheeple-

[T-bucket23]

Originally Posted by bates_k

Are they, really?? Find me a '75 Civic. Or any mid seventies Japanese import.
I used to own a '67 Datsun 1600. I sold it when the parts became too hard
to come by. Now I own a couple "captive imports". They're not Japanese,
they're '70s German and I can still buy parts for them at my FLAPS.

K

I am talking about cars built today not 40 Years ago. GM actually built a decent car in the 70's. Go look at the resale value of a 4 year old Camrea or Maxima, then check that against the same year Malibu or Taurus. Its a joke, the American car will have lost 80% of its value as compared to the foreign car with maybe 40% loss. Check cost of ownerships or repair records that are produced from independant agencies and they do not compare.

There is a reason the Big 3 are giving away cars now, no one wants to by the crap they are producing. The economy does have an impact but the Japs are still selling cars and they are not giving them away either.

Go to any independant repair garage and ask them what the best cars on the road are, they see all the stuff that starts falling apart after 50K miles and all the stuff that should never have been done in the first place. The American brake rotors that are junk at 40K, completly rusted out from the inside. We see it all.

I think it is sad where we are at as the Japaneese learned from us and improved on our systems. The first Toyotas in this country, the Coronas, were crap, but they fixed the issues and kept improving the product quality while ours slipped away. Hyundai is going the same route as Toyota, they will be the next force to put even more pressue on the big 3

[35WINDOW]

Originally Posted by T-bucket23

There is a reason the Big 3 are giving away cars now, no one wants to by the crap they are producing. The economy does have an impact but the Japs are still selling cars and they are not giving them away either.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...2E&refer=japan


http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...2032124029.htm

[Houston54]

The main problem I have with any bailout is the unions. No tax payer money should go to meet their outrageous contract demands. They need to cut the legacy benefits, drop wage demands to par with other automakers, fund their own retirement, and stop being the primadonnas they have been for the past 30 years. If they fail to belly up then let GM/Ford/Chrysler go into bankruptcy and reorganize in a right to work state like Texas. Of course they need to build something worth the money and right now the only domestic vehicle I will own is an SUV and my 1954 Chevy truck.

[bates_k]

Originally Posted by Houston54

The main problem I have with any bailout is the unions. No tax payer money should go to meet their outrageous contract demands.

Well, give it 3 months, the Japanese Manufacturers are going to be in the same boat...

From http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/category/news-blog/

Originally Posted by Bertel Schmitt

Union troubles ahead in Japan: Both sides of the Japanese fence are beginning to talk tough in preparation for the spring 2009 wage negotiations. Japan’s largest labor organization plans to demand an increase in base pay for the first time since 2001, the Nikkei (sub) says. On the employer side, the Japan Business Federation, or Nippon Keidanren, recommends that corporate leaders emphasize job protection over raises in contract negotiations with unions this coming spring.

So the domestic manufacturers aren't the only ones on the hook for the unions, plus the fact
that if the Japanese union goes out on strike, a lot of the non-union US workers are going to
be affected, you can't build cars without parts...

K

[doctorjohnny]

T-bucket, I still don't see any of your details. Come on already. Give me something that I can sink my teeth into.


Here, I've got more details to help YOU out. You're right about the resale values. Do you know why? Well I do. It's mainly because of the rental car companies. They buy a slew of cars at discounted rates, make a ton of money in the rental markets, and then dump them for around half (most of the time) of what they paid for them. Only recently (in the past 5-7 yrs.) have there been rental camry's and other foreign models. SOOOOOOOOOOO when dealers like myself decide to give you a trade in value, do you think that they're going to give you more when they can buy the same loaf of bread several grand less at wal mart (the other American job killer beginning with Vlasic pickles). Yes, you can buy an off lease 2008 impala right now for like $9,000 with only 15,000 miles on it from Enterprise. The reason that you can't buy the Camry's so cheap is because there aren't nearly as many in the pool. Now load up that pool full of Camry's and Accord's and Civic's and put less Impala's, you'll see a change in demand. The same demand difference as why people would rather buy off lease Impala's, Taurus's, Focus, G-6's, Grand Prix'x, Focus', Malibu's, Cobalt's, Pt Cruiser's, Neon's, Stratus',.....etc. INSTEAD of buying new ones.

Now as far as asking independent garages (or any garage) about what cars break and don't and how much it costs to repair and so forth......he he that's redundant. If the car doesn't break, it doesn't go to the shop. And if one does, then you find out what it was. Not only that, but how would you really know without knowing the number of cars actually hit the street new and are maintained by a good owner instaed of hitting and getting dogged out by the rental car pools? You don't have the figures to, hence, figure that out.

And, if there's anyone out there who knows, which one of the manfacturers install stainless steel brake rotors on thier cars? Hmm, I thought that they all got rusty. Or maybe the Japanese put aluminum brake rotors.

Gimme a break already.

[redlightning]

There is more I could say but,just look at the Ford site.

http://www.ford.com/



Ford,Lincoln,Mercury.......................MAZDA and VOLVO.


A Ford dealer telling you to buy American,I guess he doesn,t visit his company site much.

[Conrad_AZ]

Originally Posted by redlightning

There is more I could say but,just look at the Ford site.

http://www.ford.com/



Ford,Lincoln,Mercury.......................MAZDA and VOLVO.


A Ford dealer telling you to buy American,I guess he doesn,t visit his company site much.

You might also want to dig a bit deeper on the Ford site and review where their 110 manufacturing plants are located...

http://www.ford.com/microsites/susta...-type-assembly

Manufacturing facilities in 23 countries on six continents.

Also take a look at plant closings and downsizing.

http://www.ford.com/microsites/susta...cture-capacity

For those not inclined to follow links...

CLOSED:
Atlanta Assembly Plant (closed in 2006)
Maumee Stamping Plant (closed in 2007)
Norfolk Assembly Plant (closed in 2007)
St. Louis Assembly Plant (closed in 2006)
Windsor Casting Plant (idled in 2007)
Wixom Assembly Plant (closed in 2007)
TO BE CLOSED:
Batavia Transmission Plant (to be closed in 2008)
Twin Cities Assembly Plant (to be closed in 2009)
Cleveland Casting Plant (to be closed in 2010)
Additionally, we have sold or closed the ACH plants listed below, and plan to sell or close essentially all of the 11 remaining ACH plants by the end of 2008:

Chesterfield (Michigan) Trim Plant, which produced seat foam, closed in 2006
Kansas City Regional Assembly, which performed final assembly of instrument panels, closed in 2006
El Jarudo (Mexico), which produced automotive fuel rails, sold in 2007
Converca (Mexico), which produced power transfer units, sold in 2007

Note: Batavia Transmission along with Windsor and Cleveland casting plant closings - I believe these would be considered "HARD" manufactured parts...

Ford, GM and Chrysler are global companies - as are Honda, Toyota et al. Its a global economy driven by global manufacturing these days - not only automobiles but all consumer goods.

Globalization started in the late 70's... remember when we were told that we are moving to an information based economy here in the USA? Everyone was getting retrained to become knowledge workers? Computers?

Today if you spend most of your working day in front of a computer, your job can be done by someone in India or Russia who will work for a 1/10 of what you make. About the only type of work that cant be outsourced is personal service - which is being done now by illegals who work for next to nothing and send most of what they do make back home.

The genie is long out of the bottle -

[Ausrodder]

We have the only straight six currently installed in a Ford anywhere. (makes 270Kw and 520Nm torque...you need to do the maths to horsepower).
Too hard to convert for the next emissions laws...Plant closing 2010. May be converted to produce Focus...
Mitsubishi is closing in Australia, Holden is downsizing...
Not just an American problem.
The problem is ...no local car industry...NO JOBS.
When the engine plant closes so does the piston manufacturer and the gasket plant and the bearing manufacturer etcetera
Our local cars are FAR superior to the product available a few short years ago, they have great dealer support (same can't be said for European OR American vehicles in Australia) and are able to be repaired by the local aftermarket.

BUY LOCAL CARS
and if they suck....COMPLAIN until they get their act together.

[Lil Joe]

After what GM did with the EV1 and selling the rights to the batteries,can't recall what the batteries were, they should get their help from the oil companies. Lil Joe

[bates_k]

Speaking of GM...

The bad news is that GM is so desperate for cash, it’s literally selling off its glorious past. Jalopnik reports that GM is auctioning off “many recent and slightly less-important vehicles from its Heritage museum Collection.” The good news? This is your chance to save GM, and get your hands on some of the products that once made GM the largest corporation in the world. As well as tons of the products that brought The General from there to Barrett-Jackson in search of cash flow. Plus some other random stuff (Pug 205 Turbo?). The auction will take place January 13-19, 2009 in Scottsdale, AZ. Mystifyingly, GM is even listed as a sponsor. So go on down and do your patriotic duty, and take a teal 1998 Riviera for the team. Or just gaze once more at the Art and Colour of General Motors wile crying softly. Full list of former GM Heritage Museum Collection vehicles on the auction block after the jump.

1955 Buick Century Bolero
2001 Blackhawk
G6 Rolex Pace
2007 Corvette Indy Pace/copper
2008 Corvette Indy Pace/black
1918 Cadillac
1995 Riveria Convertible
1993 Allante Pace car
1996 Presidential Limo
1998 Popemobile
1999 Eldorod
Indy Pennzoil IRL #4 (yellow)
Indy Pennzoil Panther Racing (yellow)
2003 EXT - M
2004 CTS Super V
2004 SRX Hot Wheels
2004 SRX SEMA
2005 STS MCE Integration
2006 DTS Appearance Pkg
2007 Escalade Limo
2007 Escalade SEMA
2008 CTS Sport
LMP #8
1925 Chevrolet House Car (Blue/Black)
1948 Chevy I-5 Vortech
1960 Impala
1972 Impala
2004 M/C Rock&Roll Pace (blue/yellow)
1987 Chevrolet Sprint Turbo Convertible
1989 Corvette DR-1
1989 Corvette Snake Skinner
1989 Corvette Splash
1989 Corvette ZR-1
1989 Corvette ZR-1 (Dark Red)
1989 Corvette ZR-2 Big Doggie
1989 Tracker Boom Box
1989 Zonker
1990 Corvette Right Hand Steer
1990 Corvette ZR-1 Active
1991 Caprice Classic
1991 Corvette Convertible
1991 Syclone PPG Pace
1991 Tracker Dirt
1992 Corvette ZR-1 First Built (Red)
1992 Impala SS 510
1993 Camaro ZL-1 “572″
1993 Corvette LT-1 Spyder
1993 Typhoon
1994 Corvette (Teal)
1994 Impala SS 6 Speed
1994 Impala Wagon
1994 Tracker Kalahari
1995 Monte Carlo Led Sled
1995 Monte Carlo Pro Street
1996 Camaro Brickyard Pace
1997 Corvette Alpha Build
1997 Corvette Beta Build
1997 Corvette Tiger Shark
2005 M/C Rock&Roll Pace (red)
1997 Monte Carlo Intimidator
1998 Camaro Drag
1998 Corvette First Built
1998 Corvette X-plorers
1999 Corvette C5R Show Car
1999 Corvette Shark
1999 Silverado Tonka
2000 Corvette Z06 Race
2000 Monte Carlo Brickyard #3
2000 Tahoe K5
2001 Impala Low Rider
2001 Monte Carlo Drag
Silverado #17 GMAC Racetruck
2001 Silverado Intimidator SS (Black)
2006 Silverado Craftsman Pace Flex Fuel #2
2002 Camaro Police
2002 Cavalier 425 A/FX Drag
2002 Monte Carlo Looney Tunes Pace
2002 S-10 Little Red
2003 Aveo Xtreme
2003 Corvette Lemans Pace #3
2003 Monte Carlo Rock & Roll Race
2004 Aveo X-treme
2004 Colorado SS Dark Cherry
2004 Colorado Xtreme
2004 Colorado Z-71 Vision
2004 Corvette Indy Pace
2004 Impala SS Project Vehicle
2004 Malibu Maxx SS
2004 Malibu Xtreme 2004
2004 Monte Carlo Dale Earnhardt Jr.
2004 Monte Carlo Tony Stewart
2004 Silverado Speedway
Solstice “Jazz” Transformer Movie Vehicle
1969 Reggie Jackson Camaro (red)
1990 Beretta Indy Pace
2004 Escalade Pinnacle (black)
Holden Race Car #22 (red)
2000 STS Saftey
2007 Yukon “CSI Vegas” (used in filming of show)
2003 Rendezvous CXL
1998 Rivera (teal)
2005 Colorado CC Z71
2005 Corvette Atlantic
2005 Corvette Pacific
2005 Equinox Xtreme
2004 Suburban Quadsteer
2006 HHR Official Tailgate Crew
2006 HHR Open Air
2006 HHR Panel
2006 HHR Panel Tuner
2006 HHR Xplorer Scout
2006 HHR Yearone
1995 Aurora (red)
2007 Avalanche Z-71 Plus
2007 Corvette Z06 First Built (Red)
2007 HHR SS Panel Motor City (Flat Gray)
2007 Silverado “Big Red”
2007 Silverado CC Rally Sport
2007 Silverado Country Music
2007 Silverado E85 Handy Man
1985 Calais “MSU”
2007 Silverado OCC
2007 Silverado Roadside
2007 SilveradoZ71 Orange
2007 Suburban HD Diesel
2007 Suburban Major League Baseball (Blue)
2007 Tahoe Foose
2007 Tahoe US Ski Team
Camaro Trans Am 2 seater
C/K 1500 Supertruck Chevy 2 Seat
Camaro GTZ
Camaro LT5
Corvette C5 Display Chassis
Corvette Purple Smash
Corvette Racing Boat
Corvette Trailer
Corvette ZR1 Rolling Chassis
HHR Floral
Holden Race Car (Red)
Kappa Chassis
S-10 Drag
S-10 Off Road Truck
S-10 Race Truck (Red)
S-10 Stadium Truck
2003 Centieme Concept
1916 GMC Stake Truck
1917 GMC Trailer
1948 GMC Firetruck
1978 GMC Suburban (Brown/Cream)
2003 Rollback
2004 Canyon Kayak
2004 Envoy Race Truck
2004 Envoy Water Sports
2007 Sierra All Terrain Crew
2007 Sierra HD Denali
Caprice “Fire & Rescue”
2007 Sierra Texas Edition
2007 Yukon Denali Jay-Z (Blue)
2007 Yukon XL Big Max
2007 Yukon All Terrain
2003 Hummer Spring Special
2005 Hummer Dirt Sport
2005 Hummer H2 Slant Back
2006 H3 street
2006 HHR Spring Special (Cappucino Frost)
2007 H2 Safari
2008 H3R SEMA
1994 Corvette HO
Corvette ZR 1 Snake Skinner
1904 Olds Touring Runabout
1923 Olds
1931 Olds Chassis
1940 Olds Blue
1949 Olds (Green)
1954 Olds Ninety Eight
1960 Olds 88 (White)
1970 Cutlass SX
1970 Olds 442 W30
1977 Olds Delta 88 Indy Pace
1995 Cutlass Darth Vadar
1995 Cutlass Mobil Net Race
1998 Intrigue 1998 (Blue)
1999 Intrigue 442
1999 Silhouette OSV #2
2001 Bravada Indy Pace
2002 Intrigue Last 2002
Aurora Exxon Race GTS (Gold/White)
Aurora IRL Race Car Cut-Away #5
Aurora IRL Race Car Cut-Away #5
1985 Peugeot 205 Turbo (Gray)
1985 Peugeot 205 Turbo Active (Gray)
1926 Pontiac
1926 Pontiac (Gray/Black)
1968 Pontiac Cataline (White)
1969 Pontiac GTO (Green)
1969 Pontiac GTO Judge (Orange/Yellow)
1980 Pontiac Grand Am Pickup
1994 Firebird Lingenfelter 383
1999 Grand Am SCT
2003 Sunfire X-plores (Yellow)
2006 Solstice DTP (Orange)
1967 GTO XXX Hardtop
1984 Fiero GT 2+2
1986 Firebird Trans Am Kamback
1987 Fiero GT Convertible
1991 Firebird Trans Am Twin Turbo
1993 Firebird IMSA Race car
1994 Firebird Firmula V8
1994 Firebird Trans Am 25th Ann.
1998 Firebird Trans Am Gold Rush
1998 Firebird Trans Am X-plorers
1998 Grand Prix M&M Pace
2000 Bonneville Salt Flats
2000 Firebird Rytek Project
2000 Firebird Trans Am Darth Vader
CTS-VR Race Replica (black)
2001 Aztek First Built (Black)
2001 Aztek Pace #1 (Red)
2001 Aztek SRV
2002 Firebird Trans Am Daytona Pace #2
2003 Grand AM Autocross
2003 Vibe Autocross Sema
2003 Vibe FX
2004 Grand Prix GXP SEMA
2004 GTO 1st built
2005 Firedbird Trans Am Collectors Ed.
2005 GTO SEMA
2006 Solstice Red Bull Drifter
2006 Solstice Weekend Racer
Fiero Goodwrench Race
Grand Am #85 race car
Grand Prix (show car)
GTO Drag Performance Parts
Firebird Mobil Race Car
1991 Saturn 4 Door 1991 (White)
1995 Saturn 1 Millionth
1999 Saturn 2 Millionth
2004 Ion Red Line
2004 Ion Red Line
2004 Ion Red Line
2004 Saturn Vue Spring Special
2004 Vue Red Line Street Play
Saturn Lola Race Car
1999 Grand Prix GT (red)
Regal Cielo Open Air
2001 Regal GNX
2002 Rendezvous Inca Trail (grey)
2002 Rendezvous Tour Edition SC
GTP Ultrlite (teal)
900 Pikes Peak
Malibu Friday Night Cruiser

K

[Conrad_AZ]

Not really a good year to be going to action, esp Barrett Jackson with no reserve - not good at all.

The more I think about it, the money that the Small Three is trying to get from the Feds will probably be used to offset their costs for the plant closings and and employee buyouts.

Seems like the taxpayers are buying the bullets for the Smaller Three to shoot us in our foot!

[schnitz]

I only saw a couple of Monte Carlo's listed that were worthy of even looking into. The 1918 Cadillac was the only other one to jump out at me to even consider. But the 2004 Saturn Vue Spring Special, well, oh man, I gotta book the tickets NOW. I wouldn't want to miss that...



In a while, Chet.

[oldguy829]

My point of view.
No matter how you slice and dice, it sure as hell isn't the taxpayers fault they are in trouble. Why should we bail them out?

[BMM]

How about taking some of the money that was given to banks, who do nothing but steal americains money anyway, and give it to these companies who directly, or indirectly, employ a large amount of Americains?