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Old 06-25-2013, 07:46 PM
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Ford non-adjustable valvetrain problem

Hi guys, my son's Granada that's powered by an 300 CID Inline six truck engine, burned an exhaust valve, this engine has been giving lots of valve train problems, low compression and rough idle, the valves seemed to remain slightly open, I cured the problem to an almost acceptable level by shiming the rocker pedestals but finally the engine quit.

anyway I installed new valves, machine shop did a valve seat job, and I in an effort to find the problem removed the lifters and took them appart, cleaned the internals in solvent, and reasembled them dry, with no oil inside, just a light film for lubrication, the empty lifters allowed to install the rocker pedestals without the shims I installed previously, this time I had a clearance between the valve tip and the rocker of between 0.100 and 0.160 when the lifter was fully collapsed. seemed like the plunger in the lifter was close to the middle of it's travel, sounds ok.

I didn't prime the oil sistem, just cranked the engine and it fired up right away, idled very smoothly with just a little valve clatter, I let it warm up, kept clattering a bit but still very smooth, once warm I revved it up to 2.000 rpm, in a few seconds the valve noise was gone, I returned it to idle but to my surprise the smooth idle was gone, it run rough again, like before the valve job, actually a little better but rough definitely, when I raised the rpm again to 2.000 this missing noise could be heard in the exhaust pipe (it runs only one glasspack) seems to me like the lifters pumped up and left the valves open again.

What is going on? how can I prevent the lifters from pumping up and not bleeding down again to self calibrate the valves?

I'm worried this will damage again the new valves.

Could the lifters be damaged? they looked fine when I took them appart, the bottom still had some crown, the internals fitted pretty tight and smooth, the disc valve was not pitted, looked very good to me. Another detail, the oil pressure is around 40 psi at almost all rpm.

Please give some advise.

thanks.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:18 PM
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First thing to do is a compression check.. Cold then hot, compare readings. Post them here..
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:26 PM
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Although not part of the problem, you put the lifters back on the lobes they were originally on, yes?
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:03 PM
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sure did, I removed one at a time, cleaned and returned to it's original hole.
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Old 06-26-2013, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augusto View Post
Hi guys, my son's Granada that's powered by an 300 CID Inline six truck engine, burned an exhaust valve, this engine has been giving lots of valve train problems, low compression and rough idle, the valves seemed to remain slightly open, I cured the problem to an almost acceptable level by shiming the rocker pedestals but finally the engine quit.

anyway I installed new valves, machine shop did a valve seat job, and I in an effort to find the problem removed the lifters and took them appart, cleaned the internals in solvent, and reasembled them dry, with no oil inside, just a light film for lubrication, the empty lifters allowed to install the rocker pedestals without the shims I installed previously, this time I had a clearance between the valve tip and the rocker of between 0.100 and 0.160 when the lifter was fully collapsed. seemed like the plunger in the lifter was close to the middle of it's travel, sounds ok.

I didn't prime the oil sistem, just cranked the engine and it fired up right away, idled very smoothly with just a little valve clatter, I let it warm up, kept clattering a bit but still very smooth, once warm I revved it up to 2.000 rpm, in a few seconds the valve noise was gone, I returned it to idle but to my surprise the smooth idle was gone, it run rough again, like before the valve job, actually a little better but rough definitely, when I raised the rpm again to 2.000 this missing noise could be heard in the exhaust pipe (it runs only one glasspack) seems to me like the lifters pumped up and left the valves open again.

What is going on? how can I prevent the lifters from pumping up and not bleeding down again to self calibrate the valves?

I'm worried this will damage again the new valves.

Could the lifters be damaged? they looked fine when I took them appart, the bottom still had some crown, the internals fitted pretty tight and smooth, the disc valve was not pitted, looked very good to me. Another detail, the oil pressure is around 40 psi at almost all rpm.

Please give some advise.

thanks.
The lifters are pumping up, the only ways this can happen is that a gap forms in the valve train that the lifter then adjusts to remove (a condition it should bleed down from unless this constantly repeats rotation to rotation) or the engine oil pressure exceeds the valve spring seat pressure which will allow the plunger inside the lifter to push the valve open till the spring pressure equals the oil pressure. A related thought is that the springs have lost enough tension that they let the valves bounce on their seats; the lifters would adjust for any looseness that results. If for some reason the push rods are bending a similar situation could develop. Given that this is an old engine, I'd give serious consideration to the condition of the valve springs. I'd try shimming the springs as a quick and dirty test for this. You could, also, do what you did in the past which is to shim up the pedestal to a point where the plungers in the lifters are running against their retainer clips so they cannot move further to hold the valves off their seats.

You're right; that allowing this condition to continue will damage the valves.

Bogie
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:34 PM
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I just checked the installed heigth of the springs and they all are higher than what the manual calls, seems like you are rigth, the springs are being overcome by the lifters, their tension is not enough to bleed them down, now the problem is getting those worms over here, not many parts for this old engine, not sure if the V8's are the same size, ordering a set from summit will fix the problem.

I'm gonna shim them up and see what happens but my guess is that if they have lost tension shimming will do little, is this correct?
thanks
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:41 PM
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I just checked the installed heigth of the springs and they all are higher than what the manual calls,
This is a typical problem on engines with non-adjustable valves. The factory spec is there for a reason. If cutting the valve seats causes the valve stem to sit too high, the stem needs to be cut back down to the stock height. A good machine shop should do this as a matter of course.
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:44 PM
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will the stock cam survive higher tension V8's springs? say Edelbrock's performer set for 302's ?

if 302's do fit the I6 of course...
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Augusto View Post
I just checked the installed heigth of the springs and they all are higher than what the manual calls, seems like you are rigth, the springs are being overcome by the lifters, their tension is not enough to bleed them down, now the problem is getting those worms over here, not many parts for this old engine, not sure if the V8's are the same size, ordering a set from summit will fix the problem.

I'm gonna shim them up and see what happens but my guess is that if they have lost tension shimming will do little, is this correct?
thanks
Shimming should help. If memory serves me I think the in line 6 uses the same spring as 289 and 302 V8s.

Bogie
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:14 PM
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thank you very much, I'm gonna do some spring work and see what happens.
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Old 06-27-2013, 06:26 AM
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Agusto - there are three general ways you can correct this is to (1) install studs with adjuster nuts and new rocker arms - IMO, best way, (2)install longer push rods or (3)cut the valve stems back to stock length protruding from the valve cover side of the head - and possibly worst way as you do have to totally disassemble the head again. You have 'lost' the preload on the lifters which is only about .020, min to .060, max) when the valves were ground. I went through that situation with my 5.0 last year, ending up with a set of Crane Cams roller rockers and a set of special Crane Cams studs so I could correct the problem without pulling the heads.

Think it out. Those valves and head were ground some number of thousandths, probably well more then .030 or more just to remove the wear 'ring' around each piece. This in turn raised the valve stem at least that same amount. Since the rocker arm geometry/ratio is probably a ~1.5 ratio, that .030 now becomes something else (.045?). Ford engines really like .030 as the optimal lifter preload. If you originally had that optimal preload on that OEM engine valve train, now it's probably totally gone or very close to being none - thus valve train clatter.

Springs have no bearing on the final valve depth or lifter preload though they should be shimmed back to stock with propper shims

Dave W
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:28 AM
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I found this kit and I think it's exactly what I need:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cr...view/make/ford

converting the dumb ford idea to the clever chevy's ancient design
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:47 AM
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I found this kit and I think it's exactly what I need:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cr...view/make/ford

converting the dumb ford idea to the clever chevy's ancient design

Crane Rocker Arm Guideplate Conversion Kits 36655-16. This is the full set which has gotten expensive and I hope will fit a 6 cyl. You will need to machine the OEM rocker arm ball to 3/8", and not exactly an approved fix, but think it will work fine though

Yeah - Ford went backwards on that design in the '70s but it was cheap on the assembly line and a finance guy's dream.
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:57 PM
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Shimming the rocker pedestals is a bad remedy!!!!!

On inline Ford engines and V8s with hydraulic lifters and non adjustable rockers, clearance specified by Ford is at the rocker and valve stem tip with....
......................."LIFTERS COMPLETELY COLLAPSED"!!!!!! .............................

On the 6 cylinder 300 (80-87) The Collapsed lifter clearance at the valve stem should be .125 - .175 !!! It is adjusted with longer or shorter push rods or valve lash caps !

You could end up with different length push rods on more then one maybe even different on all 12!!!! depending on how good the machine shop is That's why it is so important not to mix up your push rods and lifters (They must go on the same cam lobes they came off of) and after a valve job especially You will have to check collapsed lifter clearance and usually need different push rods or valve lash caps to bring lash to specs!

There is a tool for collapsing the lifters to check clearance or you can make one very easy!!!!

Jester
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Old 06-27-2013, 05:21 PM
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Jester, I posted in the first time that I had checked them empty of oil:

"I had a clearance between the valve tip and the rocker of between 0.100 and 0.160 when the lifter was fully collapsed"

when the ooil pressure raised, the lifters pumped up and extended fully, it's clear that the only thing that bleeds them down is the valve springs, mine must be pretty weak, I'm gonna have to adress this first, I'm gonna shim 'em and collapse the lifters again and see what happens, if this doesn't cure the problem I'll replace the springs, converting them to fully adjustable will be the next step, I found that using the chevy's I6 rockers is a performance trick since they are 1:6 ratio.
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