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Old 01-13-2010, 12:33 PM
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ford solenoid I terminal

ok working on an 82 ford with TBI 302 engine and i got the fuel pump to run at the relay plug but it still dies immediately when you let go of the key switch from cranking position.

starter solenoid came to mind

it has bene a long time since ive messed with old fords but i kind of remember something about the I terminal on these solenoids and the ignition

if the solenoid is bad would this problem occur?

i have totally forgotten

but if its anything like the old GM points setup that used the R terminal off the solenoid to power the coil when only running and not cranking then this has to be the cause of this problem on this ford

right?


thanks

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Old 01-13-2010, 01:13 PM
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I had to look at 83, 82 isn't showing any TBI motors, but it looks like the fuel pump relay is controlled strictly by the ECM, at least on the Crown Vic I looked it up under. Switched Ignition to the tan/light green wire at the F/P relay would also turn it on. Have you checked all the fusible links?

Last edited by Rickracer; 01-14-2010 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 01-13-2010, 06:03 PM
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its a continental Mark VI TBI 5.0L with motorcraft TBI

it was a factory option that year 1982 on these.

anyways i found the problem it seems, although it is odd in my opinion,. hmmmmm....

tried another solenoid but then it wouldnt even crank over anymore..

i found a couple smaller yellow broken hot wires to the postitive cable solenoid stud..

and i noticed that the I-wire at the solenoid didnt even need to be plugged onto the solenoid for it to start and run... which seems wrong to me.... i assume I is for ignition..
although the + to coil is hot with key in run position already.. so maybe its ok and correct.. even if it is less than full system voltage..

yet it is full voltage at the solenoid end of the I wire..

resistance knocked down volts??

even for TBI engines?

all seems fine now. regardless.... hmmm.....
so far anyways...

also the fuel pump now primes up with key put in run position, it never did before... i unplugged the relay and cleaned the terminals and it works now... also i jumped the inertia switch in the trunk.. totally removed it..

it wasnt running before..

thanks for anything else

Last edited by fast68; 01-13-2010 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast68
its a continental Mark VI TBI 5.0L with motorcraft TBI.....
That's not a Ford, it's a Lincoln, different animal sometimes, glad you got it figured out though,
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Rickracer
That's not a Ford, it's a Lincoln, different animal sometimes, glad you got it figured out though,
Semantics
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302 Z28
Semantics
Not really, you might be surprised to know how often the production dates, (hell, sometimes even the color of some things, ), can affect the wiring, or specific part numbers of stuff on FoMoCo products.
There are often running changes made to the exact same production model from one vin number to the next, could be a different part, different wiring, or both,
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast68
ok working on an 82 ford with TBI 302 engine and i got the fuel pump to run at the relay plug but it still dies immediately when you let go of the key switch from cranking position.

starter solenoid came to mind

it has bene a long time since ive messed with old fords but i kind of remember something about the I terminal on these solenoids and the ignition

if the solenoid is bad would this problem occur?

i have totally forgotten

but if its anything like the old GM points setup that used the R terminal off the solenoid to power the coil when only running and not cranking then this has to be the cause of this problem on this ford

right?


thanks


The "I" terminal is only hot during cranking and it's sole purpose is to by-pass the resister circuit to the coil during start. This is done through electronic means on newer vehicles and that is the reason that terminal is either not used or eliminated completely on later Fords.


Basically the circuit is used so that the coil will receive proper operating voltage during start when the starter load causes a significant drop in voltage. If the coil was truly a 12 volt coil and was supposed to receive a full 12 volts during run then when the starter was engaged the huge load placed on the battery by the starter motor would cause an under-voltage condition of about only 8 volts to the coil just when it needed full voltage the most. Fortunately the wise old engineers at the factories noticed this little problem and installed coils designed to run on about 8 to 9 volts and placed a resistor circuit (or ceramic resistor) in place to reduce the full circuit voltage of 12 volts down to the coil's design voltage of 8 to 9. Then to prevent this reduced voltage from dropping due to the same starter motor load they used a by-pass circuit to be powered by that "I" terminal which would place full circuit voltage on the coil only during start, at this time however due to starter load the full circuit voltage would be down to about 8 or 9 volts which matches what the run circuit would feed the coil during run.

Last edited by oldred; 01-14-2010 at 02:24 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickracer
Not really, you might be surprised to know how often the production dates, (hell, sometimes even the color of some things, ), can affect the wiring, or specific part numbers of stuff on FoMoCo products.
There are often running changes made to the exact same production model from one vin number to the next, could be a different part, different wiring, or both,


However the ignition circuit wires on Fords are still the same R/B, R/G, pink and Brown on the later vehicles as they were on my 64 Mustangs!
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Old 01-14-2010, 10:15 AM
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But your 64 Mustang doesn't have a fuel pump relay, so what's that got to do with the price of tea in China??
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Old 01-14-2010, 10:59 AM
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So what does a fuel pump relay have to do with ignition on the later models? I was just explaining about the "I" terminal on the solenoid and was not considering the fuel pump relay.

Fuel pump relay on Ford.

When the ignition key is switched to "on" power is applied to the ECU power relay (coil side) which then in turn applies power to the fuel pump relay. The fuel pump relay is then grounded by the ECU (coil side) to energize the relay and supply power to the fuel pump. If the ECU does not sense the engine running in a few seconds it will then open the ground circuit and shut of the FP relay thus shutting off the power to the pump.



BTW my 64 Mustang does have a fuel pump relay for EFI and has had one since 1989.
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Old 01-14-2010, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast68
ok working on an 82 ford with TBI 302 engine and i got the fuel pump to run at the relay plug but it still dies immediately when you let go of the key switch from cranking position.....
This is why I was concentrating on fuel pump, it isn't clear whether it died from lack or fuel or lack of spark,but it sounded like lack of fuel to me,
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Old 01-14-2010, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
....When the ignition key is switched to "on" power is applied to the ECU power relay (coil side) which then in turn applies power to the fuel pump relay. The fuel pump relay is then grounded by the ECU (coil side) to energize the relay and supply power to the fuel pump. If the ECU does not sense the engine running in a few seconds it will then open the ground circuit and shut of the FP relay thus shutting off the power to the pump....
On the 83 Crown Vic I looked up, the F/P relay has a common ground, and is powered by the ECU, that's why I made a comment about it being a Lincoln vs. a Ford. It's not just semantics. Anyway, I'm done with this discussion, and will probably think twice about taking the trouble to look up wiring diagrams anymore, you guys know it all anyway. Peace,
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Rickracer
Anyway, I'm done with this discussion, and will probably think twice about taking the trouble to look up wiring diagrams anymore, you guys know it all anyway. Peace,

Hey don't take it wrong I had no idea your feelings were being hurt, I thought we were just having fun! The only reason I went over that solenoid thing was because he asked about the "I" terminal and was a bit puzzled about it's purpose, a lot of people are because sometimes it is used, sometimes it is there and not used and sometimes it is just not there.



Fast, after re-reading what you wrote I think your problem is in the "run" or resistor side of the circuit. If you put a meter on the hot side of the coil you should have about 8 to 10 volts showing with the key in "run". If there is no voltage in "run" but there is in "start" then your problem lies in that resistor circuit. This sounds like the problem because you would have the resistor by-pass circuit supplying power while the engine is cranking so it would fire but then it would lose spark when the key is released to the "run" position, is this what is happening?
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