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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2006, 09:39 PM
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Ford Starter Problems

Hey,
I am building a 56 bird for a customer and I am in a bad case of bunt out. The whole car is new from end to end, but I can't keep the starter from sounding like a chevy that needs shimmed. This car has a 289 and an automatic, and both the starter and flexplate are brand new. Why is this thing sounding so rough? I even tried another starter. What about the shim on the flexplate, is it possible that I have it on the wrong side of the flywheel?

Fat rat.

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Old 02-21-2006, 02:31 AM
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289 and C4?

Say there is a shim on the flexplate? Is this actually a reinforcement? That should go on the outer side of the flexplate. Did this engine have or require a block plate?

Quality starter or ADVANCE AUTO junk? You need to confirm postive engagement of the starter drive to the ring gear and go from there.
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Old 02-21-2006, 06:45 AM
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I'm assuming that this is the first time you've ever cranked this engine after assembling the engine and trans?

A lot of the questions that I'm going to ask pertain to factors that might "warp" the flexplate ... or otherwise affect the meshing of the starter drive and flex plate.

Also, I have no idea of how much of a "Ford guy" you are, or what your qualifications are ... so please don't be offended. (That's pretty much an assumed thing here at hotrodder's I think.)

How did the assembly go?
Is the converter all the way into the front pump? (We had a thread on this subject the other day)

Some Fords have a drain plug on the convertor. If this one does, is it "lined up" with a hole on the flex plate?

Are the transmission dowels on the back of the engine, as well as the holes that they go into on the bell-housing in good shape?

Are the engine and trans from the same (donor) car? I realize that a 56 Bird never came original with a 289. I'm wondering if perhaps the engine may have been fom a manual trans car, and still have the pilot bushing installed? (Sounds stupid, but I thought I might throw that out there.)

Do you have all of the original parts, and did you carefully compare them to the new stuff? Ford had a lot of different starters and flex plates with different tooth counts, and perhaps even different methods of balancing them.

Is the trans a C4 or an FMX/FX/MX/"Cruise-O-Matic" style? (A C6 is also possible, although unlikely)
C4 - Seperate Bellhousing, 6 or 8 (?) bolts are inside.
FMX/FX/MX/"Cruise-O-Matic" - Seperate Bellhousing, 4 bolts on outside ... similar to manual trans.
C6 - One-piece aluminum case, bellhousing cast as part of the case.

Have a look at the engineering numbers on the drive-end housing on the starter. If it's original to the 289, it should be something like C5AF-11131-AB. While you're looking at the DE housing ... are both mounting holes drilled, or is one of the holes threaded?

Post a reply back here with as many of those engineering -- and/or brand & part-numbers -- of the components you used. Someone may be able to help you spot a mis-match.

There should be a fairly heavy guage steel plate that goes between the engine and trans, that has a cut-out hole for the starter. How well did the starter match up to it?

That's about all that I can think of to ask right now. It's been a long time since I have done one of those, so I hope I'm asking the right questions.

KULTULZ is a guy with a lot of Ford knowledge, and there are a few others around here too. In regards to his comment, is it possible to use a gear marking compound like Prussian Blue to test my "warpage" concerns?

KULTULZ: Is this "block plate" that you referred to the same thing as the "fairly heavy guage steel plate" that I mentioned above?
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Old 02-21-2006, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
KULTULZ: Is this "block plate" that you referred to the same thing as the "fairly heavy guage steel plate" that I mentioned above?
Yes, a spacer plate (heavy gauge) between the block and trans case. Not all applications used them. Usually, as you mentioned, torque convertor spacing problems manifest themselves when not assembled correctly.
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Old 02-21-2006, 05:54 PM
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Doc here,

Another question,

Is this a stock mounted battery or did you relocate it with a second Solenoid? If so the Solenoid can hang the starter drive if it doesn't happen to collapse at the same time as the first..

Just a thought..

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Old 02-21-2006, 08:33 PM
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The large "block spacer" goes between the block and the flexplate, but there should be no "shim" between the flexplate and crank (which mount flush up). The block spacer must be correct for the tranny used.

Also, there were two different starters made for those small block Fords, one for manuals and one for automatics. The difference is in the nose depth, and if I recall correctly, automatics require the long nose version.
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Old 02-21-2006, 08:53 PM
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Yes, the engine, tranny, and rear are from a 65-66 mustang. I am a long time restorer of chevy muscle, and I was real hesitant about taking on this project. All and all it has turned out to be a fabulous car, but I do not have a deep Ford background. Although I have learned a lot about what will and will not interchange. This has been totally baffeling. The flexplate was checked against the old one, but the starter was not. I am going to try some marking compound on the starter drive and see if it is too tight or loose and go from there. It is just discusting that I may have to separate the two to fix the problem.

fatrat
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66GMC
I'm assuming that this is the first time you've ever cranked this engine after assembling the engine and trans?

A lot of the questions that I'm going to ask pertain to factors that might "warp" the flexplate ... or otherwise affect the meshing of the starter drive and flex plate.

Also, I have no idea of how much of a "Ford guy" you are, or what your qualifications are ... so please don't be offended. (That's pretty much an assumed thing here at hotrodder's I think.)

How did the assembly go?
Is the converter all the way into the front pump? (We had a thread on this subject the other day)

Some Fords have a drain plug on the convertor. If this one does, is it "lined up" with a hole on the flex plate?

Are the transmission dowels on the back of the engine, as well as the holes that they go into on the bell-housing in good shape?

Are the engine and trans from the same (donor) car? I realize that a 56 Bird never came original with a 289. I'm wondering if perhaps the engine may have been fom a manual trans car, and still have the pilot bushing installed? (Sounds stupid, but I thought I might throw that out there.)

Do you have all of the original parts, and did you carefully compare them to the new stuff? Ford had a lot of different starters and flex plates with different tooth counts, and perhaps even different methods of balancing them.

Is the trans a C4 or an FMX/FX/MX/"Cruise-O-Matic" style? (A C6 is also possible, although unlikely)
C4 - Seperate Bellhousing, 6 or 8 (?) bolts are inside.
FMX/FX/MX/"Cruise-O-Matic" - Seperate Bellhousing, 4 bolts on outside ... similar to manual trans.
C6 - One-piece aluminum case, bellhousing cast as part of the case.

Have a look at the engineering numbers on the drive-end housing on the starter. If it's original to the 289, it should be something like C5AF-11131-AB. While you're looking at the DE housing ... are both mounting holes drilled, or is one of the holes threaded?

Post a reply back here with as many of those engineering -- and/or brand & part-numbers -- of the components you used. Someone may be able to help you spot a mis-match.

There should be a fairly heavy guage steel plate that goes between the engine and trans, that has a cut-out hole for the starter. How well did the starter match up to it?

That's about all that I can think of to ask right now. It's been a long time since I have done one of those, so I hope I'm asking the right questions.

KULTULZ is a guy with a lot of Ford knowledge, and there are a few others around here too. In regards to his comment, is it possible to use a gear marking compound like Prussian Blue to test my "warpage" concerns?

KULTULZ: Is this "block plate" that you referred to the same thing as the "fairly heavy guage steel plate" that I mentioned above?
I have checked every angle on this assembly. This combo has a NAPA premium starter and flexplate for a 65 mustang. The only thing I know is maybe the block plate is wrong. Are these plates just thicker or thinner, or do they offset the starter. I checked the wear pattern on the flywheel and it is only engaging about 1/8 of an inch and there is a few slivers in the bottom of the bell housing. It acts like it needs a 164 tooth flywheel. What do you think?
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Old 02-24-2006, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfatrat
I have checked every angle on this assembly. This combo has a NAPA premium starter and flexplate for a 65 mustang. The only thing I know is maybe the block plate is wrong. Are these plates just thicker or thinner, or do they offset the starter. I checked the wear pattern on the flywheel and it is only engaging about 1/8 of an inch and there is a few slivers in the bottom of the bell housing. It acts like it needs a 164 tooth flywheel. What do you think?
You didn't mention part numbers...

The NAPA starter should be a 44-9628 for an 65/66 Mustang with an auto trans. Manual trans was a different number. Check your invoice AND the box AND the sticker on the part. (Picking/Packing errors are not uncommon)

Assuming that the flex plate also came from NAPA, it should have been a 600-5010 .

I also had a look at the 65-72 Ford Parts Catalog (Microphische) and found the same thing there.(These are the most recent #'s in catalog --- I'm sure they change up)
Starter: D40Z 11002 A
Flex Plate: C3AZ 6375 L

The steel plate P/N is D0OZ 7007 A (sorry, looks like it's obsolete)
It fits 65-71 (B,F,P,X) with 250/289/302 and C4 trans
B=Fairlaine/Torino
F=Mustang
P=Maverick
X=Falcon

You shouldn't need to worry about this piece though, providing it, the engine, and transmission all came from the same car. There are no thickness variations for this part, as there is no need to "shim" a Ford starter... as it mounts laterally.

An incorrect one from a totally different model might offset the placement of the starter. Eg 351C / C6 is the same bolt pattern, but probably uses a different flex plate.

I strongly suspect that you simply have the wrong starter or flex-plate based on your 1/8" engagement statement.
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Old 02-24-2006, 04:43 PM
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very probably wrong (offset) model starter

offset is the distance from the starter mounting surface to the engine side of the ring gear

one is 3/8", the other is 3/4" that's why you only show 3/8" engage
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Old 03-02-2006, 10:45 PM
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Well, The problem is cured. I separated the engine and trans today and started searching the net. THERE IS A SHIM THAT CAN GO BETWEEN THE FLYWHEEL AND CRANK> they manufacture a .025 and .050. Summit, Jegs, and Autozone sell them. This is what I was refering to on the original post. I have built many many chevys and I believe I'll stick with it. I don't have enough time to get a PHD in Ford technology. So all you dedicated Ford guys and gals, remember, there is a shim on the flywheel. I still believe I would rather drop a chevy starter and slid a shim in rather than spend all day separating the motor and trans on a FORD>

Fat Rat
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:30 AM
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congrat's on finding the problem, (rare by my standard)

but be aware there are Chevy flexplate shims also to get best possible crank and flexplate spacing....and then you shim the starter to try to match those shims...(so many threads on this board Chevy starter match problems)

Ford is usually just wrong nose length = wrong offset
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Old 03-03-2006, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfatrat
Well, The problem is cured. I separated the engine and trans today and started searching the net. THERE IS A SHIM THAT CAN GO BETWEEN THE FLYWHEEL AND CRANK> they manufacture a .025 and .050. Summit, Jegs, and Autozone sell them. This is what I was refering to on the original post. I have built many many chevys and I believe I'll stick with it. I don't have enough time to get a PHD in Ford technology. So all you dedicated Ford guys and gals, remember, there is a shim on the flywheel. I still believe I would rather drop a chevy starter and slid a shim in rather than spend all day separating the motor and trans on a FORD>

Fat Rat

Well, after having been a Ford partsman from 1979 to 1992 ... that's news to me, and you've aroused my curiosity.
All that I know of is a reinforcing plate that goes on the outside of the flex plate ... Ford basic "6A366"

I HAVE heard of shims between the crank and flywheel on a MANUAL trans ... they are called "Flywheel Savers", and are designed to maintain the distance to the clutch surface after turning (machining) the flywheel surface. This is usually only a concern where you have a hydraulic slave cylinder.

How many of these shims did you use then? .050 wouldn't make that much difference would it? You were talking (it sounded like) 1/4" ... 5 of the thickest shims?

Do you have a part number, or a link to a picture?
I did look at Summit for these to fit a 289 ... but was unable to locate them.

Autozone's server is down.

Jegs (TCI) has one for a Chevy...
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