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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2006, 10:31 AM
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Frame welding

Craig Steese again here! I am so glad that there is so much disscussion about the welding of a spring block to a frame. The key here is that no one really knows what matterial we are dealing with or what the engineer who designed it had as a spec. We want to feel safe and that we can confidently do this job.
Most modern steels are 90,000 pounds tensile strength. 7018 is 70,000 pounds tensile strength. 6012 is 60,000 tensile strength . Can you see where I am going with this?
Also most likely this weld will be done from the bottom on the frame while lying on the ground. Because the metals are different.Frame steel to cast steel elongation is key,but you also need tensile strength. I would use a 1/8 nickel rod made to run out of position and make as many passes as it takes to make a fillet the depth of the narrowest piece.I would weld in with D/C reverse polarity for deep penetration.Your weld zone should be glowing cherry red while you are doing this. Then you can forget about this breaking forever.( Please be sure to remove the gas tank obviously, before doing any welding.)

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Last edited by Craig Steese; 12-21-2006 at 10:33 AM. Reason: left something out
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2006, 11:02 AM
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Craig, There is far more to choosing the rod than just tensile strength and although an E9018 (and there are several variations of the 9018) would probably work ok it really would not be the best choice. Nickel rod Why? Nickel rod would be a very poor choice here and would not work well at all. "Weld zone glowing cherry red while doing this", surely you are joking.
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Old 12-21-2006, 12:24 PM
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Frame welding

Red, The nickel; rod I am thinking of has 35% elongation and 125,000 tensile strength. The 6019 would work for the reason that it is soft and might not crack due to the different amount of carbon in the 2 steels. The nickel is also easier to run for a guy who does not do a lot of welding. True it is over kill,but at least he will have peace of mind.
If he took it to a welding shop the guy would probably use 7018 and say "this might not last". 7018 to be effective must be stored at high temperature other wise it looses its strength. Did you ever try to weld with some that was left in a damp garage for a few months? The flux flies off and it sticks like crazy.
Of course a very experienced welder could do a good job of this with just about anything. Technique and experience counts for a lot. If I were not a welder ,then I would probably try a fastener of some kind.
Nickel rods such as a 309 stainless glow red especially on a buzz box type welder and can generally be used either A/C or D/C. Some of them drip pretty bad out of position ,but there are some that don't. They are easy to use by occasional welders. If some one did not feel extremely confident doing this themselves then I would recomend asking for help.
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Old 12-21-2006, 01:11 PM
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Craig, Welding that thing on is not rocket science and does not need any high tech procedure. Just for the record I am a retired welder with over thirty five years in the mining industry where we maintained some of the largest earth moving machinery in the world. I have a great deal of experience in welding steel castings some of which weighed many tons and required weldements well over a foot thick and sometimes required hundreds of pounds of filler so I know a bit about steel castings. I also know well about rod storage and rods from a freshly opened hermetically sealed container will be just fine. Technically the 9018 rod would work ok but the 7018 would be more than sufficient and more forgiving and using a stainless rod such as a 309 or 308 is just plain ridiculous, HAZ temperatures should be limited and to say the weld area should be glowing red is just plain wrong. If welding with something like a 1/8" stick then preheat should not be necessary on something that thin but if using small MIG wire some preheating would be a good idea to prevent thermal shock at the beginning of the weld otherwise keep it as cool as possible. Exotic welding rods, certainly not stainless steel rods, and high tech procedures are not necessary here this is a simple mount relocation.
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Old 12-21-2006, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by oldred
I hate to disagree but I would not use the low tensile 6012 rod nor is AC the best choice. A good low hydrogen medium tensile rod such as 7018 on DC reverse is a far better choice.
im no expert on welding, at the time all i had was an ac welder and it has never let me down i havent done much with the dc yet
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Old 12-21-2006, 02:20 PM
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For the most part DC will give a smoother weld with less spatter but how much better depends a lot on the rod, a 6012 welds quite nicely on AC but 7018 does not work too well on it, however the special AC7018 does work somewhat better if AC is all that is available. The 7018 on DC reverse works very well and is in fact an excellent all around rod that will easily weld in any position making it easy to get sound inclusion free welds that are a good balance of tensile strength and flexibility. Your success with the mild steel rod does not surprise me at all and is a good example of why tensile strength is not everything and in some cases other weld characteristics are more valuable than super high tensile strength. I did not intend to make it sound like I thought you had made poorly done weld it is just that IMO the low Hydrogen 7018 on DC reverse would be a better choice in this case both for strength and weld-ability.
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Old 12-21-2006, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
For the most part DC will give a smoother weld with less spatter but how much better depends a lot on the rod, a 6012 welds quite nicely on AC but 7018 does not work too well on it, however the special AC7018 does work somewhat better if AC is all that is available. The 7018 on DC reverse works very well and is in fact an excellent all around rod that will easily weld in any position making it easy to get sound inclusion free welds that are a good balance of tensile strength and flexibility. Your success with the mild steel rod does not surprise me at all and is a good example of why tensile strength is not everything and in some cases other weld characteristics are more valuable than super high tensile strength. I did not intend to make it sound like I thought you had made poorly done weld it is just that IMO the low Hydrogen 7018 on DC reverse would be a better choice in this case both for strength and weld-ability.
i know you didnt, ive only had an ac/dc welder for a year now im gonna try dc- more now that say that
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Old 12-21-2006, 06:52 PM
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frame welding

Hey Red , I am retired as well, but when I was selling that exotic welding rod I wish I had a hundred customers like you! Craig
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Old 12-21-2006, 09:29 PM
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Welding advise.

Thanks to all who responed to my welding question. I think I'll bolt the hangers on and do some short runs with the rod. That should to it.THANKS AGAIN! BUTCH.
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Old 12-21-2006, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by junior stocker
Thanks to all who responed to my welding question. I think I'll bolt the hangers on and do some short runs with the rod. That should to it.THANKS AGAIN! BUTCH.
As an alternative to bolts, rivets or welding have you considered epoxy?

Just kidding

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Old 12-22-2006, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
Craig, Welding that thing on is not rocket science and does not need any high tech procedure. Just for the record I am a retired welder with over thirty five years in the mining industry where we maintained some of the largest earth moving machinery in the world. I have a great deal of experience in welding steel castings some of which weighed many tons and required weldements well over a foot thick and sometimes required hundreds of pounds of filler so I know a bit about steel castings. I also know well about rod storage and rods from a freshly opened hermetically sealed container will be just fine. Technically the 9018 rod would work ok but the 7018 would be more than sufficient and more forgiving and using a stainless rod such as a 309 or 308 is just plain ridiculous, HAZ temperatures should be limited and to say the weld area should be glowing red is just plain wrong. If welding with something like a 1/8" stick then preheat should not be necessary on something that thin but if using small MIG wire some preheating would be a good idea to prevent thermal shock at the beginning of the weld otherwise keep it as cool as possible. Exotic welding rods, certainly not stainless steel rods, and high tech procedures are not necessary here this is a simple mount relocation.
Oldred I agree,
For the most part there are a lot of rods to use but 7018 a common Structural Steel rod which can handle a lot of flexing 70,000 bounds tensile strength and one of several welding process use to weld heavy equipment to the frame rail of trucks.
Now on hot rods you see on the tv show everything is mig or tig welded. But with out seeing the part I could not say to do this.

The problem I have with 7018 for someone that's not doing a lot of welding, it can prove to be a challenge in vertical and over head welding, it can stick a lot for the first timer leaving a mess.
No heating the frame rail, If I remember right they riveted everything so there was no heating of the frame rails. I also seem to remember frame rail to have been heat treated to retain there shape from flexing and loads.

Man we sure get this welding stuff going for such a simple thing.
Last and most important I think if we could see the part we would have had better answer.


Craig
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Old 12-22-2006, 07:44 AM
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This definitely got a bit out of hand but the original questions were very good ones that come up often when building/modifying a street rod. He simply wanted to know if he could use the equipment on hand to move the brackets.

1-Can I use my Craftsman welder? (possibly AC only but maybe DC?), in either case-YES, it will work just fine.

2- Which rod to use? The standard E7018 on DC reverse would be more than adequate and probably would be the first choice of the vast majority of welders. If AC only then the AC7018 would fill the bill nicely and in fact may even be easier for a less experienced welder since it will start easier without sticking but I can not imagine an experienced welder encountering any problems in any position with either rod, a welder that can not weld with 7018 simply can not weld. The 70,000 LBs is the AWS rating on this rod and if you look at the spec sheet most types, and there are more than one type of 7018, are actually around 80,000 LBs.

3-Compatibility of the frame steel/hanger steel/welding rod used. Again there is nothing mysterious about welding a steel casting and one the size of that hanger needs nothing more than just to clean the dirt/rust from the weld area and then weld just like any other piece of steel, it should not be confused with an iron casting. The 7018 rod is very compatible with both the casting and the frame steel.

All of this of course requires a certain amount of skill to do properly and welding technique along with attention to details such as rod moisture and preventing slag/porosity in the weld bead is as important, or more so, than which rod to use. The biggest problem I saw here was to heat the weld area to a cherry red . I am honestly not trying to slam anyone here it is just that IMHO that suggestion, if followed, could very well lead to serious frame damage.
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