[ChevyTruckGuy]

It a sad day when one can't express one self to help ones fellow hot rodder and show the younger guy that we learn buy are mistake. clearly not out of line. and was sending a real good message. About drinking and driving.
No different then the debate over foreign worker in this country.
Free thought is that what were here for to exchange Idea's agree to degree from time to time. It not all about hot roding Are lives are much more than that.

What good is a forum if you can't have a debate
This one will die to I guess
Any way Just my personal thought

Craig

[BarryK]

I think Centerline made the right decision.

You knew this baby was heading for the dump when it was first posted as a subject like this can never be debated in a forum like this because of the age differences and back grounds. Race would be another subject that could never be debated here and not get dumped.

A lot of us old fudpuckers on here (over 40) are going to think different than
a 20 year old. (like the attack on Doc)

Unfortunately a lot of us may have lost friends or family to drunk driving
and really don't find the escape of a ticket for drunk driving amusing at all.

The moderators I'm sure have to look at that angle also plus all the surfers that are on here and not registered.

I agree with the statement, if you don't like don't read and only reason I tuned in is because I saw Centerline post and just could not believe he had a story to tell.

[killerformula]

Originally Posted by ChevyTruckGuy

It a sad day when one can't express one self to help ones fellow hot rodder and show the younger guy that we learn buy are mistake. clearly not out of line. and was sending a real good message. About drinking and driving.
No different then the debate over foreign worker in this country.
Free thought is that what were here for to exchange Idea's agree to degree from time to time. It not all about hot roding Are lives are much more than that.

What good is a forum if you can't have a debate
This one will die to I guess
Any way Just my personal thought

Craig

Chevy-

I certainly understand where you're coming from, and if your original intent was to show that you've learned not to drink and drive from the mistakes you've made in the past, that's great.

The thread started having some questionable material in it and Center chose to lock it. To be honest with you I was on the verge of locking it myself, I think Center did the right thing. The thread title seemed to invite those who had done some drunk driving and gotten away with it to tell a story about it, and the post-quality started dropping in a hurry.

We don't condone illegal activity on this board. Street racing and drunk driving aren't things that can be advocated on HR.

K

[kenseth17]

I agree, I see why they wanted to close it. I am one of the dumb ones who has some drunk driving offenses. Luckily I never hurt or killed anyone or had an accident. Its very easy to fall into doing, hard to break out of when drinking is as big as it is around here, and almost everyone you grew up and know does it. Funny thing is a lot of the da's procecuting me I knew cause I bowled against them, and they drank too. I was the one that would get caught though. I caught a few breaks, but not something I would brag about. Boy If I could only have the money spent on fines and driving after revs, conciling back. Plus sitting in jail is no fun, and your checks get sent to them. Even though the law was it goes off your record in 10 years when I got them, they will stay on my record for ever because they back dated the law so they will stay on even though the law was different at the time. After going through a lot of living hell after getting them, I think I finally learned my lesson. Simple fact is its hard or just inconvient to find a ride when you have been drinking, had taxi's I've called never show up. If you have been drinking you aren't thinking straight, and I'll be okay and I'm bulletproof thinking starts taking over. If you continue to drink in drive you will most likely be caught eventually, and you can consider yourself lucky if you didn't hurt of kill anyone in the process and only have a ton of fines, court, jail, counciling, no license, and future high insurance costs to deal with. I know a lot of young people do it, but its not something you want to continue to do, hopefully you learn your lesson quicker then I did. On the rare occasion I do go out for some beers now, I make sure I get dropped off, so I can't drive home. Driving drunk besides being wrong and the fact you can ruin your or someone elses life, chances are if you get caught nowadays, you probably won't catch any breaks. The police get a big chunk of change from MADD and they get a lot of money from an owi bust.

[ChevyTruckGuy]

Hear the deal Doc comments Were fine. But When you start saying every thing related to alcohol is bad that just not true. And you don't think hearing a story about doing something stupid affect the way young guy think. It no different that tell kids about drugs and you don't think they have not seen the friend get busted for smoking pot or have die from drugs Think again!
Education people that what were doing with are story. And having an opinion is not a bad thing. History people we all have learn from the past. Are we better for it? heck yea. So thing again went you start censorship. If it not one thing soon it may be more.
Freedom to think and learn and just maybe we save a guy or two along the way.

Craig

[Centerline]

Originally Posted by ChevyTruckGuy

......... So thing again went you start censorship. If it not one thing soon it may be more. Freedom to think and learn and just maybe we save a guy or two along the way.
Craig

Do we practice censorship here???? Yes we do. Is this forum available for everyone to exercise their freedom of speech???? No it's not. If we didn't practice these things this place would be just like some of the other, lower class hot rod sites on the net.

Freedom of speech is granted here only to the extent that Jon decides it is. Remember this is HIS forum. He pays the bills and keeps this place on line. Jon has a set of standards that he put forward. They have been discussed and agreed upon by all the mods and there are just certain subjects that HotRodders doesn't want to advocate or will not allow. Street racing is an example, as are any race related discussions.

If the thread had just stuck to the "drunk driving is stupid" posts that would have probably been acceptable but it didn't. Several posts were people bragging about outrunning the police etc. This is something that we do not advocate and for that reason I closed the thread. I can virtually guarantee that if it hadn't been me one of the other mods would have dumped it pretty quickly.

[ChevyTruckGuy]

No one said doing illegal thing was a good thing it was the experience they had with the topic posted. Just like this one. The point is your looking you getting involve. and that my friend is what make a good forum.

Craig

[ChevyTruckGuy]

Centerline,
If that's the case then maybe you should dump the persons post and not close the topic and inform that person is post was not escapable.

Craig

[cucumber1949]

I think I've read all the justifications for dumping the thread. It was in the lounge, a place of general discussion, and the home of worse threads in my opinion. I'm sad for those who live in California where it is so difficult to do anything with street rods. I think it is more a problem with politics out there on the left coast than street rodding. We are under additional scrutiny everywhere because of our hobby, but not because of mixing that hobby with drinking. I was passing through a sobriety checkpoint in my street rod on the evening of St Patty's day - the police just waved me right on through without stopping. They know it too.

Of course the message is don't drink and drive! DUH!! Anyone not get that?? Additionally, I didn't see one story about drinking and street rodding. I've found all street rodders to be responsible drivers when they have their ride on the road. No one wants to lose their ride because of something foolish, and I hope we all know that drinking and driving, much more drinking and rodding is foolish. I guess there will always be those who feel the compulsion to evangilize a subject and make it sound as if they are wiser than the masses. As well as those who feel they must exercise their power to limit discussion. If anyone read that thread as condoning drinking and driving, then that person should quietly exit the general area so as not to be teased unmercifully by those that understood the original intent of the thread. If the concern is guests who come by and read the thread thus getting the wrong impression, then it needs to be deleted so as not to be seen by those guests or any other sensitive individuals. Leaving it stand or placing it in the dump doesn't accomplish much to that end, does it? To leave it there otherwise leaves me wondering what the real agenda is.

Should this forum be inclusive of those who want to relate to others those situations and consequences they've experienced that are akin to good old parental advise? 'Don't do what I did son, you'll get in trouble!!' That's what Mom and Dad said and it worked for me and a lot of others. We all learn by example, good or bad. What's wrong with that?

[killerformula]

Look guys I dont think any of us are trying to pretend that we hold the moral highground here. We've all screwed up at one point or another. I take exception to the comment that moderators are cracking down on free speech. Lets be reasonable here, how often do you see a thread get locked down or dumped around here when its not advertising? This issue is as simple as a standard of post-quality on this forum. Jon sets the standard and very little ever gets locked/dumped as a result.

Furthermore, I think its a generally held social norm that drinking and driving isn't acceptable. Do we really need a lounge thread on Hotrodders.com to illustrate this? If so, who's really doing the preaching here?

Lets all relax guys, we don't always see eye to eye on every issue around here, but I think most of us have a pretty decent experience around here.

K

[donnie g]

gentleman: really this isn't an argument over free speech
but something more...values , what is right what is wrong!
look you're kids in the eye and say freedom of speech
too many people from my country and your's are fighting for whats right! ....then some where in the middle of this freedom of speech comes along, that is a good thing!
the moderator was doing the right thing by shutting the thread down
for 10 cents i could ramble on some more,... nah i only have a nickle!

[MARTINSR]

I personally couldn't believe it lasted more than a post or two. Drunk driving isn't funny, it isn't in any way shape or form. It has no place in any discussion other than to say how stupid it is. To laugh "WITH" some one about drunk driving is like laughing with them about sticking a gun in their mouth, it isn't funny and has no place at Hotrodders.

Just my opinion.

Brian

[Jon]

Some of the posts in that thread were a cautious "warning" to those who may be reckless behind the wheel. Other posts passively condoned drinking and driving by treating it as acceptable youthful hijinks. It's the latter that prompted the moderation of that thread.

We now use a flowchart to aid in moderating decisions. Anyone is welcome to check it out, it's at this link:

http://www.hotrodders.com/help/board/mod_flowchart.png

Not all threads will fit the flowchart perfectly, but it's a good summary, so you can get an idea of the underlying decision-making process.

One of the things that we stress in our moderator guide is this: the less moderation that has to be done, the better. This is not only because we believe in minimal government, but because constant moderation is resource-intensive. While Dumping/Locking a thread only takes a few seconds, explaining the reasons for the action consumes significant amounts of time. With 3 posts by 2 mods in this thread, plus mine, we are already over 1 man-hour of time spent reading and replying to this thread. This figure will probably double by the time we are finished.


In the mod forum, for this particular thread, we discussed that drinking and driving is:

1. incredibly stupid
2. something that most of us have done at one point or another

--

Locking a thread is a very mild moderation action.

Dumping a thread is more severe (the thread is locked when it's Dumped, and it's scheduled for eventual deletion during a monthly Dump cleanout).

Deleting is even more severe (we typically only delete blatant spam).

--

"Freedom of speech" defenses are quite common in forums, and usually have little basis in judicial reality. If a person wanted to start their own website to discuss drunk driving, and the government shut them down, then that would be a violation of free speech. On the web, you are free to establish your own turf, and make your own rules. However, if you are on someone else's network, you must play by their rules.

Regardless, in most online communities, rules are formed by the collective will of the members. ChevyTruckGuy -- if you can get more people to agree with your point of view on this issue, then your opinion may carry more weight.

[ChevyTruckGuy]

See It not all about hotroding, We all have lifes and we share these thing with each other. And that the point to agree to deagree. That makes a good forum, make you want to come back see whats going on. How you doing? how your rod coming along. wife kids ok.
Thats what defines us. It not just rodding
With the Internet we are creating friend across the world. People we would have never met an other way.

This is a good thread I'm enjoying the different points of view. That why I started it. I new it would make everyone think about the former topic.

SO were the topics good? did they hit home? did we express are opions?
Yes, Do you thing any good came out of it I hope So.


Craig

[1ownerT]

There is no freedom of speech when you are a visitor in someone elses home.
You play by their rules.