Hot Rod Forum banner

Front clips and frame swaps --- More work, less value

7K views 23 replies 16 participants last post by  theHIGHLANDER 
#1 ·
Sorry about this but I have to get something off my chest.

I belong to several forums and there are always questions that come up about frame swaps and front clips. Now I know many people won’t agree with me but if you really think about it I hope you’ll understand my point.

I don’t know who it was that started the “frame swap” craze but that’s just what it is. It’s a fad. Everyone and his brother seem to want to just jump on the bandwagon with little thought of exactly how much work is really involved. Sure it looks simple on the surface but the truth is that the best frame for any vehicle is the one it came with from the factory. People just don’t understand the extra work involved and most find that hanging the body and especially the front sheet metal isn’t a simple operation and it requires lots of fabrication. The time saved by going to a frame that already has IFS and motor mounts (that’s the argument for doing a frame swap that I hear most often) is usually eaten up by the extra time it takes to adapt everything and make it work. With the availability of aftermarket IFS systems, bolt or weld in cross members with integral motor mounts, bolt in rear suspension kits etc, it hardly seems worth the time and extra work to perform a swap.

Perhaps the most important thing to consider is that in many cases it actually lowers the value of the finished product. There are a couple reasons for this. First if it doesn’t fit perfectly and the wheelbase and track width aren’t correct it doesn’t look right and you’re not going to get top dollar for a car or truck that doesn’t look correct. (Just ask anyone that owns a StreetBeast about that one.) Second is the safety issue. Most people won’t pay a huge chunk of change for a vehicle when they don’t have a lot of confidence about the quality of its construction. Face it, there are very few shadetree mechanics that can do the type of quality work that most professional shops do. Yes, there are some but most of us (and I include myself in this group) are just shadetrees. We do OK but our stuff can’t match up to the average $50,000+ pro built rod in quality or in looks. And when someone is going to fork over big bucks for a street rod someone else built, unless it came from a pro builder or is something extremely special, you’re probably going to have a lot of trouble getting the cash you think it’s worth. People just won’t pay as much for a car that has had major structural work done by someone other than a pro.

Front clips are the same way. Not so much because they lower the quality of the vehicle, they do, but for the overall safety aspect. Many clips just don’t look right because the track width isn’t correct. But the most importantly there’s only one way to properly install a clip, and there are hundreds of ways to screw one up. That said, all clips aren’t unsafe by any means. But unless the person doing the cutting and welding is experienced the chances are there will be some misalignment that will find it’s way into the process. This may cause tire wear problems or alignment problems or nothing at all. Worst case would be a catastrophic failure at speed on a crowded highway. Way too many inexperienced people jump on the front clip bandwagon without the foggiest idea what they’re really getting into. It takes one person with a Mig welder one day to install a basic Mustang II IFS on a typical rod but it might take two or three times as long to do a similar clip installation. OK so the Mustang suspension costs you a few bucks I’ll admit that, but with some judicial shopping a basic kit can be had for well under a grand. But by the time you spend the money to rebuild the suspension on the clip, install new brakes and rotors and a new steering box, (we do want to compare apples to apples here) you’ve spent two to three times the amount of time and darned near the same money you would have spent on the Mustang or similar kit. If a clip is welded in properly, aligned correctly, and actually has the correct track for the vehicle then you’ve about broken even. We haven’t even talked about all the extra labor involved in hanging your 40+ year old front sheet metal on that new clip. You’ll need to add several extra hours of labor and fabrication for that as well.

Bottom line is that as far as I can see there are only two reasons to ever consider a frame swap or clip installation. One is if the previous owner has hacked up the stock frame to the point that it is unusable or unsafe and second if the stock frame has been damaged beyond repair due to an accident or rust.

Like I said I know a lot of you won’t agree with me but your opinions are, as always, welcome. :mwink:


Centerline
http://www.hotrodsandhemis.com
 
See less See more
#2 ·
It`s called customizing,Or hotrodding.

Individuality, from model Ts to 2003s.

Troy;:spank:
 
#3 ·
Well, I certainly have some opinions.

First is cost. I did a hybred frame swap on my 57 chevy truck. I had less than $300 in the whole frame with new power brakes, power steering, rearend. I could not have bought even the cross member for that. Not to mention everything else. Also, I used the coil spring rear suspension which not only performs better, but rides better. I was able to reuse all the mounts off of the old frame and just relocate them to the new frame and remove the new frames existing mounts. The bed bolted directly on with no modification.

As for the track width, it was off by about 1 inch on each side. All that is neede to correct it is a set of wheels with proper back spacing, which cont cost any more than any other custom wheels. Track length was perfect.

As for saftey, I dont see any issues since I used all oem parts just partially rearranged.

There is a picture of the truck in my album at the track on a launch. Take a look.

Chris
 
#5 ·
Come on willy, lets be open minded here.You mean if I agree with you , You still wont beleave me?

I`ve done many many(lost count) Frame clips,and never had one, not one problem, or complaint. I never let one leave my shop that wasn`t right.

I would guess that at least 75-80% of all customs and street rods out there have been clipped, or have a non org. frame.
They ride better,stop better,. corner better just safer. If they wasn`t, then the new cars would still use them. Anyway thats my opinion.

Troy;
 
#6 ·
.
We do OK but our stuff can’t match up to the average $50,000+ pro built rod in quality or in looks. And when someone is going to fork over big bucks for a street rod someone else built, unless it came from a pro builder or is something extremely special, you’re probably going to have a lot of trouble getting the cash you think it’s worth.
I guess you're right about that. I won't be able to get $50,000 for my car, but I won't have that much in it either! Actually if I was in the market to buy someone else's project, frankly I would think it is safer to buy something that is on a factory frame that has had the body mounts moved, than something on a frams that someone built at home. As long as it fits, I have no problem with it. But then I don't usually trust the work of too many people that I don't know extremkely well. I also don't think that most of the people that are on this board are really interested in doing these projects for what they can get for them after they are done either.

The main thing to remember is that we are all doing this for fun. As long as it is done safely, we don't need to agree. When you have a frame that the suspension and brake systems are designed for that increases the chances of it being safe, in my opinion.

I see posts regularly about people doing stuff to cars, and trucks that make them unsafe. I will usually post something to help make it safer. I may be driving down the road one day and come up on that car. Most of the regulars here are trying to help others. It isn't helping them by condeming them for not going and having their cars professionally built or built to professional standards.

Actually, by the requirement of the original frame, there are alot of older street rods that shouldn't be on the road. It was common practice to use 32 frames for Model A bodies. That was a frame swap! I wouldn't mind at all having one of them!

Just my opinion, and I don't care if anyone agrees or not.:evil:
 
#8 ·
Ah, diverse opinions. Thats what makes this hobby interesting.

Don't get me wrong, if someone wants to do a clip, its their car and they shoud build it the way they want to, not me. But I just think way too many novices jump into a clip or frame swap because all their buddys (who are novices as well) think it's the "in" thing to do and that's not always the case.

I totally understand everyone's personal likes and dislikes and except them. All except for Willys. He and I think way too much alike to understand each other. :skeptic:

Centerline
http://www.hotrodsandhems.com
 
#9 ·
I can see your point on saftey, but if done properly, I think frame mods are perfectly fine.

They are certainly not for the faint of heart, or those with poor fabrication skills. Particularly those who cant weld well. I have seen some dirt dobber nests holding cars together that make be scared to even stand close to it.

Chris
 
#12 ·
Another reason to do a frame swap is when you have no frame! I have a Rolls Royce that is uniboby. The cost to repair the hydraulic system,suspension & brakes was $18,000.
I removed the sub frames & made a frame for it using GM front & rear suspension.
Don
 
#13 ·
Clips and frame changes

I have a 63 Chevy2 convertible and I dont have alot of money but I think this car is kind of rare and one day will be a good investment . I mean I want to keep it , drive it and improve looks, safety, handling and conveniences but I always end up selling things to get money to buy something elese I want more or if I just need the money. Problem : If you add modern things even though you are improving the car in everyway are you lessing the value of the car? As for what Centerline says I do agree that alot of people want to be in or follow the fads , by changing suspensions etc. but in minor upgrades to suspensions are for any improvements I guess we all want that. Some people just take things a little farther than others or get a little more exotic. Guess thats why we have a free country and our own opinions. thanks musky2
 
#14 ·
I agree with Centreline, when the vehicle has more value, if left stock. My truck when I got it, was in such poor shape that it would have cost more than it was wrth to fix up all the componants. It was more economical for me to "sub frame" it............plus I got the Nova for free.
 
#16 ·
Sometimes the clip is done for safety reasons. When I decided to put a Ford 351m in my 53 Ford sedan I didn't want to deal with the old brakes and suspension. I cut to frame off just foreword of the firewall and had a rectangular frame section made in a welding shop on frame jig and welded in place. I set it up to use a 1980 Chrysler big block K-Member. welded up a set of motor mounts and body/bumper mounts and put it together. It was a fair amount of work and I used professional help when I wasn't comfortable or qualified, but in return I got power disc brakes, torsion bar suspension, and power steering. It rides great, tracks straight and stops on a dime. I would definitely do it all over again. I agree that to do a clip just for the sake of doing it isn't the way to go but a hot rod with a big engine and antique suspension/brakes is much worse than a properly done clip.:thumbup:
 
#17 ·
BEFORE I DID MY FIRST SUBFRAME.....I DEBATED FOR MONTHS...EVERYONE SAID IT WAS SUCH A NIGHTMARE TO DO AND SO MUCH INVOLVED. THEN I SAID HELL WITH IT AND JUST DID IT....IF YOU CAN WELD AND MEASURE AND HAVE THE TOOLS TO DO MINOR FABRICATION THERE IS NO REASON YOU CANT DO A SUBFRAME YOURSELF.

IF YOU ARE CONFIDENT IN YOUR ABILITIES GO FOR IT DONT LET ANYONE TELL YOU YOU CANT. IF ITS YOUR VEHICLE THAT YOU NEED TO DRIVE IM SURE YOU WILL BUILD IT SAFE ENOUGH FOR YOU TO DRIVE IT...
 
#18 ·
mile-hightoyz said:
BEFORE I DID MY FIRST SUBFRAME.....I DEBATED FOR MONTHS...EVERYONE SAID IT WAS SUCH A NIGHTMARE TO DO AND SO MUCH INVOLVED. THEN I SAID HELL WITH IT AND JUST DID IT....IF YOU CAN WELD AND MEASURE AND HAVE THE TOOLS TO DO MINOR FABRICATION THERE IS NO REASON YOU CANT DO A SUBFRAME YOURSELF.

IF YOU ARE CONFIDENT IN YOUR ABILITIES GO FOR IT DONT LET ANYONE TELL YOU YOU CANT. IF ITS YOUR VEHICLE THAT YOU NEED TO DRIVE IM SURE YOU WILL BUILD IT SAFE ENOUGH FOR YOU TO DRIVE IT...
THANX, I AGREE. AND WHY ARE YOU SCREAMING AT US?
 
#20 ·


Like I said I know a lot of you won’t agree with me but your opinions are, as always, welcome. :mwink:


Centerline
http://www.hotrodsandhemis.com [/B]



Centerline and I agree to disagree on a lot of things.....:)

But I have to agree with him on this...........most of the time.
I have seen a lot more bastard frame swaps than safe, well done, well thought out swaps. 32 frames under Model A's not counted.

A lot of the time.....not all.......the frame swap is started by a under funded, under educated car novice who wants disc brakes, IFS and a modern ride for a few hundred bucks :rolleyes:

Most of the time........the abortion makes it as far as the scrap yard or is parted out. Lack of funds, knowledge and skills doom the project before the first bolt is turned.

Be Honest.........how many of you know of aborted projects just laying around for YEARS ? I know of 8 to 10 ( 1 at my house ) ;)

If you plan ahead, can weld and fabricate at a professional level, and stay with it...it can be done............just rarely that it is....


:thumbup:
 
#21 ·
since I bought my nova a year and a half ago I've been going to as many car shows and events as possible bothering all of the nova guys with a million questions...not one of them that 1. drives it more than 5 days a year and 2. has more than 300 hp(with was a lot of them) absolutely hate the handling and braking(or lack of) that the stock subframe/suspension setup has to offer. Every single nova owner I've talked to that did a clip or had one put on or bought one with a clip done loved it and would do it again. Yes there's difficulties and things to work around but that's part of being a mechanic and a hot rodder!
I make a living maintaining, upgrading and fabricating stuff for airplanes, I think I'll be okay with throwing a clip on and hanging the sheetmetal.

If you've got a valuable car that you're not going to drive that much...don't bother cause yeah, cutting it up usually kills its value and there's no reason to put that money and effort into something you're not going to use.
If you want to use it as a driver I'd be doing as much safety stuff possible after almost being killed in a wreck a year ago- I don't ever want to watch the top half and bottom half of my femur sword fighting inside my leg again, through one eye. Furthermore I don't see how upgrading the brakes and suspension system is that horrible of an idea, last time I checked if a car stops and handles better that would tend to make it safer to drive.

Are clips the only way to improve? NO! My '56 shoebox all I did was get the top tube A-arms to get correct geometry and put discs and a sway bar on, next is a rack/pinion steering to upgrade from the power 605 box. It rides and stops GREAT compared to what it was stock and it costed a couple hundred. For my nova, I'll be doing a subframe...will it be a lot of work? yep. but I've never talked to someone that's got one done that doesn't like it. will it cost a little more? yep but if I'm able to stop in time to avoid an accident or decrease bodily injury I'd pay a lot more than the cost of a front clip.

and yeah, I want to kick the guys in the nuts that got their front clip swapped out just cause it was cool and made the build price of their project go up- for the guys that did that, you're not hot rodders you're toy collectors! oh yeah, and if you don't know how to weld, by all means practice as much as you can, BUT NOT ON SOMETHING STRUCTURAL! c'mon!!

and I'm spent. sorry for ranting so long...
 
#22 ·
Guidelines

And these are mine and no I do not expect anyone to agree with me any at all...!!

If it is a straight early truck or classic type of car then it is a matter of freshening the suspension with some new parts like kingpins and bushings, tie rod ends, maybe a rebuilt steering box, clean and refurbish the springs, to make it ride and handle like it did when new..

If one has something like a body and frame that has been stripped and not complete anyway then make a resto rod out of that..use a clip provided one can be located that is a good fit for the car..

I think some of the deal regards frame swaps revolves around using the S-10 chassis..This particular unit to me is the modern equivalent of the 32 ford rails..comes with disk brakes and has a lot of aftermarket upside to it..

For the guys who want to or feel better about it, then go with one of the aftermaket Mustanf fron clips from Heidt's, Fatman, Morrison, or who ever...those things are completely reengineered, look gorgeous and the only thing in those that came from Ford is the idea..

Now if we can just get people to think 3-4 times..measure a bunch..weld once and respect what they are doing maybe we won one..

Lots of ways to skin the cat so to speak..and we all have opinions..but there is always something to learn..

Geez..this thread is two years old..!!!!!!

OMT
 
#24 ·
All of you make good points here. I'll try to muddy up the waters some tho...

Value...who gives a fatratsazz about the value of the car that one figures "needs" a clip? Ok, my 67 used to be grandmas 6cyl Nova has about 1/10 the value of the cost of making it perfect original. I can't think of any lamebrain that would clip a 375hp Nova (prolly a 40K car these days), so what's the value gig got to do with it.

Skill...well unless you do this every day, or as a lifetime hobby, sideline, vocation, religion, maybe you shouldn't attempt it. I too have seen many a shakey weld job. Someone gets a bargain 110v flux core glue gun and thinks he's Jerry Bickle overnight, selling his unknown talent to unsuspecting buds. Seen that way too much.

Safety...Centerline might be on a little about the "fad" vs the actual reason for doing this. Right on, we all want IFS and disc brakes, and don't wanna special order repair parts so a common subframe seems logical. But you really need to know a lil bit about vehicle dynamics before diving in with both feet. Same ideas, excuses and lack of funding is more what killed the pro-street tub jobs, and I'm kinda happy about that anyways. There's a few that wanna have a set of 21.5x33s under their car, but not as many these days.

Kits...knowing front suspension dynamics, requirements (personal and mechanical), and a sense of value vs cost make most of those deals pretty smart. The engineering is prolly older than some of the guys that want it done or are doing it. Hell, the mustang II thing started way back in the 70's from drag stuff. And here's an old moth-balled idea...remember Corvair front suspension swaps? That was a kool idea in it's day when those parts were easy to get.

Bottom line is, most frame clip jobs are plain butt-ugly, don't line up well, and are pretty obvious to spot. Hey if that's all you want, go for it. I've maybe seen one that looked good and was real hard to tell without looking real deep into it but the guy spent an ungodly amount of time doing it. In the end it did look nice. Most of our rodding breteren just wanna ride and don't spend that quality time doing work of that caliber.

It's your car so do it your way. I don't want it on mine tho.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top