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Old 07-01-2007, 10:32 PM
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Full hydraulic steering (No Column)

I want to run full Hydraulic steering on a project I am going to start soon. Has anybody here used full Hyd. steering on a street car? I know with the crawlers it works great. Id run it through a cooler and filter for obvious reasons. Its safe as far as working without power. Any pros or cons? I imagine it might feel a little weired not having a column but im sure I can get used to that. I have heard that some BMW's are going that way? Thanks

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Old 07-01-2007, 10:57 PM
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I'm not at all experienced with this but I do have one question. How safe is it? Yeah the crawlers do it but they're off-road vehicles and don't see street action. What would happen if a hose ruptured, a belt threw or the system otherwise lost pressure? At least with a more traditional steering system there is still a direct mechanical link between the driver and the wheels.
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Old 07-01-2007, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazin72
I'm not at all experienced with this but I do have one question. How safe is it? Yeah the crawlers do it but they're off-road vehicles and don't see street action. What would happen if a hose ruptured, a belt threw or the system otherwise lost pressure? At least with a more traditional steering system there is still a direct mechanical link between the driver and the wheels.
Very true, but then again have you ever heard of a hose rupture? Maybe rear steer also, Just incase?
just joking. good point it is something to concider.
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Old 07-01-2007, 11:35 PM
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It's definitely an interesting idea and I suppose it would present a very clean engine compartment on a street rod. It wouldn't even have to be a ruptured hose, it could be a leaking fitting that could cause the fluid level to run low and create a lack of pressure. Now if you could set the system up so that it's spring centered it might be safer. Do you know if those systems use single or double acting cylinders? If they're single acting you could set two of them up opposing each other and use the internal springs to return them to neutral.

I'm definitely interested to hear what others have to say.
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Old 07-01-2007, 11:51 PM
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It is about the only system that they run on big tractors and lot of heavy equipment. I don't think I'd really want to go to all the hassle and expense to do a full on hydraulic system, but there are some electric and electric over hydraulic systems already in use, and have been around for some time. TRW has been making several types of systems that are incorporated into some production cars since the mid 1990's.

here is another thread about those systems..
electronic power steering

Here is the TRW website.
http://www.trw.com/productsandtechno...%5E208,FF.html

eaton makes some good stuff, here is a link to their steering valve page.
http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/steer_main.htm

I would think that road feel would be the issue with one of those systems. I know they get very spooky when they get worn out. Then you don't "drive" the car, you "herd" it.


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Old 07-02-2007, 12:22 AM
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just copied this from their web site.
No one in the offroad industry has been building power steering for rock crawlers longer than we have. The same technology we have used to win the Baja 1000 many times is now available for rock crawlers and rock racers. Whether you require a full hydraulic system for competeting or a ram assisted steering box for weekend adventures Howe Performance has got you covered.

www.howeperformance.com/rockcrawling.html
From what ive read on these, they do self ctr. you can also adjust them so you get good road feel. I dont Know that for sure, just read it in a couple of places.

Last edited by Metal Twister; 07-02-2007 at 12:31 AM.
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Old 07-02-2007, 06:51 AM
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According to this supplier:

http://www.bc4x4.com/pr/2002/ram/

there are legal problems:

"In most locations, a fully hydraulically actuated steering system is not legal where as a hydraulic assist system IS legal."
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Old 07-02-2007, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Twister
Very true, but then again have you ever heard of a hose rupture? Maybe rear steer also, Just incase?
just joking. good point it is something to concider.
ever blow a brake line? and in most places its illegal though hydraulic rear steer would be cool.

Shane
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Old 07-02-2007, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevrolet4x4s
ever blow a brake line?
That's why they use double master cylinders...
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Old 07-02-2007, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazin72
That's why they use double master cylinders...
Oh you guys, where is the adventure? where is the risk? I wouldnt do it only because it might put others in danger. But if that wasnt the case I'd be all over it. Rear steer,em?
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:57 PM
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Looking at the Howe website, the Steering Hand Pump (Orbit Motor) shown there looks exactly like the ones used in Ag Tractors-could save you some money that way-go find an old I-H Tractor (806-1486) and it should be cheap-
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Old 07-02-2007, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35WINDOW
Looking at the Howe website, the Steering Hand Pump (Orbit Motor) shown there looks exactly like the ones used in Ag Tractors-could save you some money that way-go find an old I-H Tractor (806-1486) and it should be cheap-
we buy all of our race and buggy hydraulics from Howe. He is here in town and helps us out with our own personal stuff, I know that the orbital motor has to be matched with the pump, theres also different amount of turns before you hit the bumps availible
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Old 07-02-2007, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Looking at the Howe website, the Steering Hand Pump (Orbit Motor) shown there looks exactly like the ones used in Ag Tractors-could save you some money that way-go find an old I-H Tractor (806-1486) and it should be cheap-
I worked at a DOT repair garage and they had a huge 1939 road grader that steered by some sort of off-the-wall, constantly turning drive gear going to the box. Then to steer, you pulled back on one handle that engaged another gear to steer one way & vice-versa.

The box got worn out and no parts were available. Then they tried 2 hyd steering pistons controlled by a 2-way hyd spool valve. Well that was a handfull to drive on the road, so they did exactly what 35window said....took a steering wheel & orbit motor from an 1974 International payloader. But they had problems because the cylinder sizes were not matched to the orbit. They ended up putting homemade flow restrictors in the hoses

Since some may enjoy reading about other mods on this old creature......

The engine which was a start on gas-run on diesel that finally went bad, the superintendant found an ad for NOS surplus International diesel farm equipment in a trade magazine. This guy goes to the biggest know-it-all in the shop to find out how to bolt up the new motor to the old trans. This jerk tells them to just have the surplus place make a 1/2 steel bell adapter, and didn't even bother to worry about what type of clutch it needed or how far the trans input stuck out.

I told the shop foreman it won't work, but he said, "let them dig a grave by ordering this stuff", then you can fix it.

When the stuff came in the jerk was baffled and the foreman dumped it on me. I sat there calculating each speed on the original trans plus ones we had to fit the dump trucks. I found a Spicer 60 series that was almost identical in all gears & reverse. The modern bell housing patterns are pretty much standard. The foreman doubted my suggestions but let me try.

Got the engine & trans set in, but the trans output splines needed to fit into a huge double chain sprocket. The old spline and new spline were the same count but slightly too small in the chain hub. The foreman was a clever guy so he got working on making a broaching tool from a spare outut shaft and used a press to hog out the hub. Last thing was the output seals were wrong for the chain hub to fit into the trans, but a quick look in the seal spec book found one that would fit.

Sorry for the long post, but I had a good time with that project, and it sure beat doing oil changes
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Old 07-02-2007, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F&J
I worked at a DOT repair garage and they had a huge 1939 road grader that steered by some sort of off-the-wall, constantly turning drive gear going to the box. Then to steer, you pulled back on one handle that engaged another gear to steer one way & vice-versa.

The box got worn out and no parts were available. Then they tried 2 hyd steering pistons controlled by a 2-way hyd spool valve. Well that was a handfull to drive on the road, so they did exactly what 35window said....took a steering wheel & orbit motor from an 1974 International payloader. But they had problems because the cylinder sizes were not matched to the orbit. They ended up putting homemade flow restrictors in the hoses

Since some may enjoy reading about other mods on this old creature......

The engine which was a start on gas-run on diesel that finally went bad, the superintendant found an ad for NOS surplus International diesel farm equipment in a trade magazine. This guy goes to the biggest know-it-all in the shop to find out how to bolt up the new motor to the old trans. This jerk tells them to just have the surplus place make a 1/2 steel bell adapter, and didn't even bother to worry about what type of clutch it needed or how far the trans input stuck out.

I told the shop foreman it won't work, but he said, "let them dig a grave by ordering this stuff", then you can fix it.

When the stuff came in the jerk was baffled and the foreman dumped it on me. I sat there calculating each speed on the original trans plus ones we had to fit the dump trucks. I found a Spicer 60 series that was almost identical in all gears & reverse. The modern bell housing patterns are pretty much standard. The foreman doubted my suggestions but let me try.

Got the engine & trans set in, but the trans output splines needed to fit into a huge double chain sprocket. The old spline and new spline were the same count but slightly too small in the chain hub. The foreman was a clever guy so he got working on making a broaching tool from a spare outut shaft and used a press to hog out the hub. Last thing was the output seals were wrong for the chain hub to fit into the trans, but a quick look in the seal spec book found one that would fit.

Sorry for the long post, but I had a good time with that project, and it sure beat doing oil changes
Yea,! Yea,! OK now post some pic's. I want to see this thing!
,
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Old 07-02-2007, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Twister
I want to run full Hydraulic steering on a project I am going to start soon. Has anybody here used full Hyd. steering on a street car?
I think you can see from the responses above that all the applications for a full hydraulic system are LOW SPEED (ag tractors, rock crawlers, etc.). That's for a reason.
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