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Old 11-28-2005, 06:53 PM
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Fuse holder burned

Had a problem with the 30 amp inline fuse link going to my electric fan. It melted for no apparent reason. I checked all the wires and checked the amperage draw for the fan and have 21.5 amps on initial start and then it showed 9.9 amps running. My question is can those fuse holders that you buy at the parts stores or jobber fail like that for no reason. Got a little smoky in the car. Don't really want that to happen again.

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Old 11-28-2005, 08:03 PM
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sounds to me that the fuse is too big for the application

you might try replacing the holder and lowering the fuse amps start with 15 or 20 and if it pops go to the next bigger

or wait for Doc Vet to pick up your thread he can explain how it works much better than I

good luck

SR66

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Last edited by Rob Keller; 11-29-2005 at 11:53 AM. Reason: forgot Doc Vets pimp
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Old 11-28-2005, 08:13 PM
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Doc here,

The reason that happened is most fuse hardware is not designed to handle high amp components. I would also suspect the wire may be undergauge also, check to be sure.

You need to install a set of relays, for the fan (s) that run the source current from the battery Via Fuse link, to the motor (s) and run the relay control circuit Via the fuse panel (low draw coils)



Do not install a fuse link in the passenger compartment..It does it's job by melting, and can set interior parts on fire..and in a closed compartment can cause toxic fumes.



Doc

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Old 11-28-2005, 10:15 PM
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Thanks Doc.....you da man.
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Old 11-28-2005, 11:08 PM
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Doc it wasn't a fuse link like you have pictured but a common in line fuse holder that melted.
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Old 11-29-2005, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by western star
Doc it wasn't a fuse link like you have pictured but a common in line fuse holder that melted.
Doc here,

Modern Plastics and heat don't mix at all...

The weakest link in the circuit is (should be) the fuse, and by virtue of the fact it has spring loaded components, it is subject to heat concentration at that location, as opposed to a straight wire..(think of a water pipe, cinched down with a small leak on each end..)

This is EXACTLY why all fan circuits (as well as high draw circuits) should be controlled by a relay.

Go back to the relay drawing, look at what actually delivers the power to the motor, You will see it pass from the Battery, through a FUSE LINK (solid, soldered Fuse of RATED Value) through a set of RATED Contacts, through another set of RATED contacts, then out to the motor...NO fuse, or Fuse holder (plastic, with spring loaded contacts)



The COIL side of the contacts (The Control Circuit) Is handled by Low Source Current..( Average 1 to 3 amps draw) and therefore can be hooked directly to the switched portion of the fuse buss via a RATED fuse, and NOTE the Ground side, is the actual control..( Sender, Bypass switch, Ect..) Most senders are referenced to ground.



Relays and fuse links on high current sources serve to prevent EXACTLY what you have experienced..Fires..

You were lucky, you only suffered heat damage. That could have melted other wires, causing massive shorts and Combustion..and No matter how much Foam or water you spray on an electrical fire, It won't go out until the ignition source or fuel is expended..( Battery blows up or is disconnected, or the car burns to the ground, and nothing is left to burn) Unlike gas or grease fires that can be put out with Chemicals or water.

If the Fan circuit has no relays, I recommend you install them as per the drawing, along with fuse links.

If the main harness has no Fuse links, (pre 70's didn't have them standard) I suggest you install properly rated fuse links on the main FUSE BUSS wire coming from the Starter Solenoid, and one on the main power wire from the Alternator, and one to any unswitched sources..

All should connect at the Starter Main battery bolt, or a single battery terminal at or near the battery.

(Defeated Fuse link)

FUSE LINKS? WHAT FUSE LINKS...WE DON NEE NO STINKIN FUSE LINKS..

BTW The FD was on scene, and overhead in a bucket, and could not put this fire out until the battery melted / blew up...spraying water with a 3 inch Hauser..

So Electrical fires can be devastating to your rod..Remember this photo everytime you feel a fuse link is overkill...OR 12 volts Isn't that much to worry about..(EVEN at 1000 CCA..It only takes 125 amps to run your whole house..)

Doc

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Old 11-29-2005, 06:35 AM
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Great advice Doc; If I may add my .02 worth. Get rid of those ancient glass tube fuses. After a few years they will corrode and you will get resistance at that point which will infact create heat and melt and yes cause a fire. If you need to use an inline fuse get a good quality modern day spade fuse holder. If you use butt connectors or any kind of stakon put a piece of heat shrink over it thats got the sealant in it. This will keep out moisture and hold it firm so it will not fatigue by vibration. If you solder it use a nonacid flux and a nonacid core solder and cover it with the same heatshrink.If you clean your connections with a cleaner eg; brake/electrical clean you must spray it with a protector or it will corrode even faster. Gunks wire dryer works great and its inexpensive. Make sure the spade type inline fuse holder you use has the same guage wire that you are connecting to and that it has a rubber cap on it. And don't skimp on the quality of the fuses.They are not all equal. Of course this is just my opinion. Cheers!!!
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Old 11-29-2005, 07:04 AM
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Doc, The timing is perfect on this one for me since I just picked up some wire and a 30 amp relay to carry the load to my trailer lights and get it off the headlight switch. This is pretty straght forward and I already have it drawn out how I intend to route the wire and mount everything, but a couple of questions, -For 12 ga wire do I use a 12 ga fuse link? May be a silly question but not as silly as burning my truck from using the wrong link Also are you showing using two relays here for this fan set-up? Thanks

Dennis
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Old 11-29-2005, 09:40 AM
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I know the kind of fuse holder you are talking about. I had the same problem! I have not intergrated to two relays yet but I did change the fuse holder style and have not had a problem.

I think the gauge wire they provide with the fuse holder is to small to supply the 30 amp they say the fuse holder can handle.
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Old 11-29-2005, 11:21 AM
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It seems to me the only reason the manufacturers use fuse links is to save 10 cents per car. Don,t like em. They get too hot when they blow. Fuses, however, are encased in a thermoplastic enclosure.

Try a MAXI fuse holder for the larger sizes. I get them at an internet marine supply. They are very rugged and versitile.

Try getting a fuse link when your 1000 miles from home.

What goes with (2) relays in series?
Wwwhhhaaattt goes putting the coils in series?

Don,t forget the KISS principle.

vicrod
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Old 11-29-2005, 11:59 AM
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Doc ?
so why is it just about impossible to obtain Halon type fire extingushers any longer ?

I do beleive from what little I have seen on this product thst it would put out a electric fire if the O 2 is gone

thanks

SR66

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Old 11-29-2005, 05:45 PM
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It wasn't a glass fuse and holder that melted it was the holder that has the newer push in fuses. I have printed out your information on relays and will follow it. I did not wire this in, it was in the hot rod when I got it and never knew it was wired that way as that part of the wiring was hidden behind a kick panel. Could have lost my baby over a cheap fuse. Like I said the fan comes on a 21.5 amps and right away drops to 9.9 amps. All the wires are fine and they are of a heavier gauge. I do have a night switch right at the battery to kill everything quickly. Thank you all for your valuable information.
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Old 11-29-2005, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
Doc, The timing is perfect on this one for me since I just picked up some wire and a 30 amp relay to carry the load to my trailer lights and get it off the headlight switch. This is pretty straght forward and I already have it drawn out how I intend to route the wire and mount everything, but a couple of questions, -For 12 ga wire do I use a 12 ga fuse link? May be a silly question but not as silly as burning my truck from using the wrong link Also are you showing using two relays here for this fan set-up? Thanks

Dennis

Doc here,

Your Choice of componets is predicated on the amount of draw from the circuit, and the length of the run (assuming both truck, and trailer will be at least 50 feet)...not the wire size...

If your trailer draws perhaps 25 amps, your wire will be gauged for 30 or slightly higher amps, (12 would be fine, 10 would be MUCH better), Your relay Will have a contact rating of 30 amps, and so would your link.

Measure your total draw before selecting your components.

Yes, The fan setup uses 2 relays. The collapsing fields and cycling of the thermo sender has proven to be a burden on a single relay in the past, Now the trend is toward using the 2 relay setup in series for added protection and durability.

Keep us posted on your project!

Doc

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Old 11-29-2005, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Keller
Doc ?
so why is it just about impossible to obtain Halon type fire extingushers any longer ?

I do beleive from what little I have seen on this product thst it would put out a electric fire if the O 2 is gone

thanks

SR66

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Doc here,

Halon Type Fire extinguishers were done away with because in Close quarters, they have a tendency to remove ALL the oxygen..including that what you need to breathe..

Aircraft used to use these, and found Dead pilots in a pressurized cabin after putting out a fire from the lack of breathable air...The F.A.A. did away with these way back in the 70's I believe, Could have been a little later..

As FAR as an Electrical fire is concerned...Nothing will put the fire out until you remove the source of Ignition (Current source) And The fuel (Burning wire, insulation, interior parts, and when hot enough..metal...not to mention Gas, oil and grease).

While it might seem you are making headway knocking down the flames, so long as the fuel and ignition still persist, the second you cancel the fire retardant, it will burst right back into flames again..Unlike a Chemical fire, Electrical fire is a renewable Ignition source, until the current goes away..and makes a much harder fire to fight.

Doc

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Old 11-29-2005, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicrod
It seems to me the only reason the manufacturers use fuse links is to save 10 cents per car. Don,t like em. They get too hot when they blow. Fuses, however, are encased in a thermoplastic enclosure.

Try a MAXI fuse holder for the larger sizes. I get them at an internet marine supply. They are very rugged and versitile.

Try getting a fuse link when your 1000 miles from home.

What goes with (2) relays in series?
Wwwhhhaaattt goes putting the coils in series?

Don,t forget the KISS principle.

vicrod
Doc here,

Fuse links are used as a matter of Convenience, and Safety Engineering. Saving a Dime per manufactured unit, is nothing compared to the cost of warranty repair, and the cost of a wrongful death suit...

look at the case of the recall on the Ford Taurus and Crown Vic's from the late 80's...

Ford Tried to battle that law suit for a long time, Where an invalid Woman was left in a PARKED and OFF(I think Crown Vic..Could have been a Taurus) while the daughter went into a store to shop...and the faulty Ignition switch MELTED the Steering column (and plastic column enclosure)

The Hot plastic Ignited the Carpet and it burst into flames...The MAXI fuse never Blew...The Woman was burned to death before anybody could reach her..

Ford fought the plaintiff For years , the woman's Daughter, Claiming their car was not at fault..Until she got so tired of the harassment from Ford, she brought in 60 minutes..They investigated and FOUGHT and won the case.

It would seem, after seizure of Fords Service records, there was a "Hush~Hush" Service recall for the Ignition switch, and MAXI~Fuse, and recommended new Part numbers For warranty work.

However, were prompted to Refrain from Doing the recall unless the vehicle was in for that EXACT complaint...(To Save Money..) It ultimately Cost Ford Multi~Millions of dollars in the wrongful death lawsuit (s) PLUS the added cost of recall work.

In this litigious Society, The Manufactures are no longer leaving their "Hindsight" In the wind sucking air...To be sure. To save a dime on a safety Device or known faulty item, is not an option..

BTW : This case is well documented by 60 minutes, and If they have a Website, I would assume is in Archives..I SAW it on 60 minutes on TV about a year ago...

Fuse Links are SUPPOSED to get HOT when they blow...That is WHAT fuse links do...So that your Harness does not...

This is why you don't mount the things IN A CLOSED cabin...Always on the exterior of the vehicle.

If you think a MAXI Fuse does not HEAT UP..... DEAD short one across a battery with a larger than link rating Draw attached (so it does not blow right away..I.E. 60 amp MAXI, 150 amp draw over X amount of time...) My guess is you won't be holding that fuse in your hand anytime soon, if there is anything left to hold..and the holder itself may Turn to goo also.

You Should Be able to get a Fuse Link at ANY good Autoparts store..no matter where you are at..It's a stockable Item. BUT that isn't the point..Simply replacing it Isn't Going to relieve the problem that caused it to disable the vehicle..(Doing EXACTLY what it was engineered to do..)

You NEED to find the source of the MASSIVE short that caused the problem, and having to work on the harness to replace the link, draws your attention to the Harness Condition, and ultimately you will want to repair the problem, least, be faced with replacing the link again..(Which , If your doing it right, Involves, stripping, soldering, crimping and heat shrinking)

Pop a Maxi out and new in..is just too easy..and I find it Akin to years ago, when "pops" got tired of replacing that screw in type fuse in the garage..and stuck a Penney under it... After we finally got the interior wall to stop burning, upgraded to a resettable Fusebox.

The 2 Relays in series are the New version of the Fan control system, It was found that using a single relay alone was not up to the task of collapsing fields, and constant automatic switching (spikes, and pits) and the single relays were failing..Now just about everybody goes with duel relays in an aftermarket situation.


It is still simple..one relay mirrors the other..and if mounted together, not much of a problem to locate and troubleshoot, and will outlast a single relay, and will run a cooler contact temperature.

Doc

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