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Old 09-17-2003, 03:57 PM
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gapless rings

Has anyone used gapless rings?did you notice a difference?I have a 406 sbc and want to run the total seal rings but dont know if its worth it.

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Old 09-17-2003, 05:17 PM
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I have not used them, but did ask at the machine shop thats building my block. They have used them but didn't notice anything special with them. They also have concerns on a startup company putting out rings that are basically un-tested in the long run, as compaired to the good track record of the long time ring makers. Also, there are concerns about the over lapping ends breaking during operation because of them being only 1/2 as thick as stock rings. The theory is great, but they haven't been out long enough to really get a good or bad report yet. Lots of racers use them, but they don't run the engines 100,000 miles either. I guess its your call, but talk to your machine shop or speed shop.

Here are some good reads too.

http://www.hotrodders.com/t5040.html

http://www.prestage.com/Message+Boar...st&PostID=3966

Last edited by Jmark; 09-17-2003 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 09-17-2003, 06:58 PM
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I used Total Seal gapless in my 406. Had a problem with one cylinder seating, but that could have been something other than the rings themselves. I reringed it.
I paid about $135 at Scoggin-Dickie. They were the cheapest around. I then paid $30 to rering the one cylinder. In hindsight, maybe I should have just use some Sealed Power moly...for under $50.
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Old 09-17-2003, 07:06 PM
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I had used Total Seal gap-less in my 406 also. They had 1% leak down. They are very good to use, as the motor/rings ware they keep a better leak down rate than gaped rings, seat faster.
They are worth the extra money to get.
We use them in our race car also.
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Old 09-17-2003, 09:58 PM
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I used Childs Albert Zero Gap in my 408. I have not done a leak down test, but you can tell a difference just cranking the engine by hand that leak down is very good. Most engines will leak compression relatively quickly when turning by hand. This one doesnt.

Chris
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Old 09-18-2003, 02:51 AM
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Does anybody know where to get total seal gapless for an olds 403 in .020? (4.371 bore) The biggest I can find are 4.125.
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Old 09-18-2003, 11:16 AM
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There is a ton of debate about gapless rings. It is pretty much agreed upon that they do give excellent leak down readings. Just remember however, that leak-down testing is done on engine that is not running, i.e. static test. A lot more is going on in an engine as it is running, especially at high rpm.
It has been noted that a gapless second ring actually traps some compression loss between the top and second ring. This pressure build-up has been blamed for ring flutter and loss of top ring seal on the ring face, as well as side seal. Some performance piston manufacturers are now putting a narrow groove, radially, on the second ring land. This groove adds some volume to the ring land area and will help circumvent pressure build-up there.
The overlapping gap, or Z-gap as Childs and Albert calls it has been around since the 1930's. This type of ring was (and still is) used on various air compressors. One thing to remember though, is that there is no combustion in an air compressor, therefore the heat factor is significantly less than an internal combustion engine.
My own ring preference is a good performance set with ductile moly top ring, reverse taper, beveled grey iron second ring. File-fit them to recommended specs and hone the cylinder to the proper finish for them and they will seal well and last a very long time.
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Old 09-18-2003, 12:34 PM
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The engine builder that I use uses the Z-Gap in all of his racing engines. He builds 16:1 compression, 1200HP, 600plus cube supergas engines everyday. I have also heard that the ring flutter thing is only a problem when you start trying to run low tension rings to cut down on friction. I dont see how compression can get trapped between two rings when first the top ring seals almost completely off from the combustion area, and the second ring has the same gap as all other types of ring sets to bypass any pressure that may escape the first ring. Seems to me this would cut down, if not completely eliminate ring flutter. But, thats just me.

Chris

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Old 09-18-2003, 12:41 PM
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in sept phr there is an article by david vissard and 5 things to do for free horsepower. first off is gapless rings, he claims it's good for an extra 8 HP and 8 ft lbs on a 350 sbc over conventional rings at a 13 thousands gap which was just this side of seizing. see page 54. he dyno'd total seal rings
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Old 09-18-2003, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bullheimer
in sept phr there is an article by david vissard and 5 things to do for free horsepower. first off is gapless rings, he claims it's good for an extra 8 HP and 8 ft lbs on a 350 sbc over conventional rings at a 13 thousands gap which was just this side of seizing. see page 54. he dyno'd total seal rings
Interesting.....what was the original power number? Just curious what the percentage is. And most rings are much looser than .013. Probably double on run of the mill parts store stuff. I have heard that the gapless are good for 5 percent, but it does not look that way from what you are saying.

Chris
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