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Old 12-25-2006, 08:58 PM
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garage wiring

OK so i got myself a brand new eagle 60gallon single stage air compressor, 240volt, 23 amp. only problem is i don't have 240 in the garage yet.

The garage is attached to the house. i want to put a power box out there to run 1 120v plug, 1 240v for air compressor, and 1 for a 240v for a heater in the future.

my question is would the wiring come from the basement power panel or would it come from the power meter that is outside attached to the side of the house?

and yes i got a electrician coming to do it for me, but here there is such a work shortage i have to wait for awhile. im just trying to get as much stuff done ready for him. i found a way to get from the basement to the garage for power if needed, and the power meter(if it comes from there) on the side of the house is about 5 feet away from the garage so it shouldn't have to go underground right?

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Old 12-25-2006, 10:18 PM
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That all depends on the capacity of your service drop from the utility company, and the size of your distribution panel. If the supply line and distribution panel are big enough the way to go would be an additional distribution panel in the garage fed from the main panel. The electrician should be able to guide you in the proper direction. Get back to us after you talk to him and let us know what he is proposing.

Vince
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Old 12-26-2006, 05:33 AM
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I'm an electrician, you could do it either way. With electric serivice to your house, you can do 1 of 2 things when originally installed. You can have either 1 main disconnect or up to 6 individual disconnects without a main disconnect. A good example is a multi dwelling house. When you do not have a main disconnect, you MUST have the individual disconnects located in 1 location. This means in your case, going from the meter outside, you'd have to install 2 disconnecting means. 1 for the garage and 1 for the house to meet the NEC. In addition, you'd have to re do the grounding in the main panel in the house as the grounding requirement are different for a main panel vs a sub. Basically, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'd suggest installing something like a 60 amp double pole breaker, running a line to a sub panel in the garage branching out to what ever you need. Don't worry about a 60 amp or what ever breaker since the size of the service to your house is calculated by sq ft and major appliances and not the total amperage of the circuit breakers added up. Doing this way will be a lot easier and cheaper.
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Old 12-26-2006, 08:24 AM
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Thats basically the same thing I did when I ran power out to my other garage at over 150' away. 60 amp breaker @ my main ran thru #3 to another panel box. Then I seperated the circuits at the secondary box with one side of the garage on 15 amp breakers for lights and outlets, the compressor on a seperate breaker, and the other side of the garage on a couple of breakers for the lights and numerous outlets. Never once have I popped a breaker.

Kevin
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Old 12-26-2006, 08:30 AM
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I just ran the wires to my garage from main powerbox to a sub panel inside the garage.
(needed for the new lift)
single phase 240 and varoius 110 outlets and light circuits.
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Old 01-03-2007, 11:31 AM
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I installed a 60amp 2 pole breaker and run 4 #6 wires in a 3/4" conduit from my main house panel to my attached garage sub panel, I was able to run my conduit from my main house panel outside and LB down under ground and run a 3/4 PVC conduit under ground to the garage & up the outside wall of my garage and LB into my garage sub panel mounted inside the garage, I used emt conduit above ground and pvc conduit under ground. and I run lights and receptacles off 20a single pole breakers and a 20a 2 pole breaker for a 240v electric heater and a 30a 2 pole breaker that feeds my air compressor, my welder is a 120v gas wire feed. your main panel should be bonded, so in your main panel your neutral bar is attached directly to your metal panel box and the neutrals and grounds are on the same bar. but a sub panel should not be bonded ! (thats why you run 4 wires to a single phase sub panel) so in your garage sub panel your neutral bar is isolated from your metal panel box and your ground bar is attached to your metal panel box, so your neutrals are on one bar and the grounds are on a separate bar.




Mustangsaly
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustangsaly
I installed a 60amp 2 pole breaker and run 4 #6 wires in a 3/4" conduit from my main house panel to my attached garage sub panel, I was able to run my conduit from my main house panel outside and LB down under ground and run a 3/4 PVC conduit under ground to the garage & up the outside wall of my garage and LB into my garage sub panel mounted inside the garage, I used emt conduit above ground and pvc conduit under ground. and I run lights and receptacles off 20a single pole breakers and a 20a 2 pole breaker for a 240v electric heater and a 30a 2 pole breaker that feeds my air compressor, my welder is a 120v gas wire feed. your main panel should be bonded, so in your main panel your neutral bar is attached directly to your metal panel box and the neutrals and grounds are on the same bar. but a sub panel should not be bonded ! (thats why you run 4 wires to a single phase sub panel) so in your garage sub panel your neutral bar is isolated from your metal panel box and your ground bar is attached to your metal panel box, so your neutrals are on one bar and the grounds are on a separate bar.




Mustangsaly
It was a long time ago when I wired my garage and I did it similar to what you did but I'm almost sure that I ran three wires out and had my neutrals and grounds together. I'll have to check it tomorrow. I drove a ground bar into the ground and hooked it up to my garage panel. Is this dangerous? Also do you recommend GFR's in a garage? They might be manditory code but I don't know.
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Old 01-03-2007, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampr
It was a long time ago when I wired my garage and I did it similar to what you did but I'm almost sure that I ran three wires out and had my neutrals and grounds together. I'll have to check it tomorrow. I drove a ground bar into the ground and hooked it up to my garage panel. Is this dangerous? Also do you recommend GFR's in a garage? They might be manditory code but I don't know.

well a sub panel should be feed with 4 wires. 2 phases/hots a neutral & a ground, and have the neutral isolated or the neutral bar isolated in the sub panel, cause with 3 wires feeding the sup panel and you lose your neutral between your panels your sub panel box could become energized or say the neutral becomes lose, a ground rod would help but a ground rod can not be the sole means of a ground, a neutral carries the unused voltage back to the service entrance/ground. so a neutral can and does carry voltage. so 3 wires to a sub panel could potentially become a serious problem. (your sub panel i'm sure is bonded, most are bonded with a screw through the neutral bar into a threaded hole bonding the neutral bar to the metal panel box, if it's not bonded your sub panel is not grounded)

by GFRs I'm guessing your meaning GFIs or GFICs ? my garage is mostly all GFIs but my wire feed welder a a few motor items like chop saws trips the GFIs, so I have a couple up above the bench that are not GFIs. but everything down low or close to the doors where a cord can be plugged in & pulled out side is GFIs. GFIs in a garage are code.

a lot of people don't understand bounding/grounding. hope this helps.


Mustangsaly
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Old 01-04-2007, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustangsaly
well a sub panel should be feed with 4 wires. 2 phases/hots a neutral & a ground, and have the neutral isolated or the neutral bar isolated in the sub panel, cause with 3 wires feeding the sup panel and you lose your neutral between your panels your sub panel box could become energized or say the neutral becomes lose, a ground rod would help but a ground rod can not be the sole means of a ground, a neutral carries the unused voltage back to the service entrance/ground. so a neutral can and does carry voltage. so 3 wires to a sub panel could potentially become a serious problem. (your sub panel i'm sure is bonded, most are bonded with a screw through the neutral bar into a threaded hole bonding the neutral bar to the metal panel box, if it's not bonded your sub panel is not grounded)

by GFRs I'm guessing your meaning GFIs or GFICs ? my garage is mostly all GFIs but my wire feed welder a a few motor items like chop saws trips the GFIs, so I have a couple up above the bench that are not GFIs. but everything down low or close to the doors where a cord can be plugged in & pulled out side is GFIs. GFIs in a garage are code.

a lot of people don't understand bounding/grounding. hope this helps.


Mustangsaly
Thanks for the reply. GFI was what I meant. I checked my panel out and I only have 3 wires coming from my house and both of my ground/neutral bars are bonded to the box. I'll try shoving another wire through the conduit to the house. If it won't go a lot of digging will have to be done.

Thanks,
Kampr
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Old 01-04-2007, 09:16 PM
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Is your conduit feeding your sub panel a complete metal conduit system ? if so use your metal conduit as a ground, isolate your neutral bar in the sub panel and add a ground bar in the sub panel and bond the ground bar to the sub panel, and put a grounding bushing in each conduit connector inside each panel with a bare or green wire from the grounding bushing to ground bar in sub panel. and in the main panel run a ground wire from the grounding bushing to the neutral/ground bar.

if your sub panel is feed with pvc/plastic conduit add a wire. your ground wire Can be a size smaller then the panel feeds and neutral wire.





Mustangsaly
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Old 01-05-2007, 07:56 AM
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My sub panel is fed with pvc conduit. Looks like I'll have to add a wire.

Thanks,
Danny
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Old 01-05-2007, 08:38 AM
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message removed

dont want to give any mis-information

go over your planned electrical work with your local code officials

Last edited by novajohnb; 01-05-2007 at 01:05 PM. Reason: don't want to give mis-information
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Old 01-05-2007, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novajohnb
Kampr,


From memory, an attached garage (I believe a garage is technically considered "attached" if it is connected to the main house via any metal conduit or even telephone/ TV cable) has to have four wires {hot, hot, nuetral, ground} going to subpanel with *non-bonded* nuetral and ground.

A non-attached garage can have three wires in the conduit {hot, hot, neutral} The ground wire is attached from the sub panel to an approved earth grounding rod system at the garage. Again, *non-bonded* neutral and ground.

As far as I know, sub-panel neutral and ground *never* bonded. Neutral and ground only connected once in the system at main service panel (house.)


Check the above info with the NEC and local code officials, as they may go above and beyond NEC.
Kampar,

1st off this statement is true. a sub-panel neutral and ground *should never* be bonded. the Neutral and ground should only be connected once in the system at the main service panel (house.) is correct !

novajohnb offense here and I'm not trying to start a argument with you but incorrect information can pose harm injury or death in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by novajohnb
Kampr,

A non-attached garage can have three wires in the conduit {hot, hot, neutral} The ground wire is attached from the sub panel to an approved earth grounding rod system at the garage. Again, *non-bonded* neutral and ground.
novajohnb By NO MEANS can a ground rod/earth ground be the sole means of a ground in any electrical system ! and by having a earth ground/ground rod and having your neutrals & grounds separate and Not bonding a panel the ground rod/earth ground would be the sole means of a ground in this type of a system as you described it.

A non-attached garage can have three wires in the conduit {hot, hot, neutral} feeding it if that was the main service to a non-attached garage and if it has the panel bonded and a ground rod is included I know is 100% correct, IF it's not fed from a breaker in side the main residential house service panel.

but when a non-attached garage is feed from a breaker in side the main residential house service panel then I think it becomes considered a sub-panel and should be treated and wired as one.

check your NJ codes and laws cause i'm not sure if NJ wants 4 wires and a non bonded panel with no ground rod in a a non-attached garage feed from a breaker in side a residential home main service panel or not.

now here if the city service comes into the meter on the outside of the house and from meter to a terminal box or a weather proof panel on the out side of a house, you could feed a non-attached garage with three wires in the conduit {hot, hot, neutral} or it could be fed over head to the non-attached garage and the panel would be bonded and a ground rod is included I know is 100% correct, IF it's not feed from a breaker in side the main residential house service panel but IF it's feed from a breaker in side the main residential house service panel it's a different story.

(as it's done here like this on the farms, buts it's all outside. the service comes into the meter on a pole then to a pole mounted weather proof disconnect or a weather proof terminal box and each building or grain bin including the house is feed with 3 wires and is like a main service to each building, grain bin & house, each building, grain bin & house has a ground rod and each panel is bonded )

I'm not sure if NJ will let you feed a non-attached garage out of a residential house panel with a breaker from in side your main panel and run 3 wires to the a non-attached garage and bond the panel and have a ground rod in the a non-attached garage or not.

personally as I see it, an attached garage or a non-attached garage feed from a breaker in side a main residential service panel would need to be considered a sub - panel and I would wire it as a sub-panel.


Really the #1 Question here is your garage attached ?


if you check into this through NJ codes or from a NJ Licensed Electrical Contractor let us know what you find out. as I'm curious.

I'm 100% sure about a ground rod/earth ground not being the sole means of a ground in any electrical system according to the NEC.

NEC = National Electrical Code

the NEC is the minimum requirements required, you can always do more than the NEC requires, but not less than required by the NEC.

hope I'm helping and not making it more confusing.

Mustangsaly
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Old 01-05-2007, 01:09 PM
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Mustangsally,
No offense taken. It's been a few years and my memory is a little fuzzy regarding all the details. I tried to preface the comments by advising to consult NEC/ code official/ licensed electrician.

So as not to confuse anyone, I removed the post .

To the original poster(s):
Incorrect electrical work has the potential to cause fire, personal injury, or even death.
Electrical work needs to be done according to code. Period.

Check with your local code officials and get a permit.
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Old 01-05-2007, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novajohnb
Mustangsally,
No offense taken. It's been a few years and my memory is a little fuzzy regarding all the details. I tried to preface the comments by advising to consult NEC/ code official/ licensed electrician.

So as not to confuse anyone, I removed the post .

To the original poster(s):
Incorrect electrical work has the potential to cause fire, personal injury, or even death.
Electrical work needs to be done according to code. Period.

Check with your local code officials and get a permit.

I agree with you, plus it's a bit harder to type it and explain it, than to say it and explain it, well for me anyway.




Mustangsaly
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