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-   -   Getting to around 396cid using 880 block (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/getting-around-396cid-using-880-block-230448.html)

Hogg 03-08-2013 10:36 AM

Getting to around 396cid using 880 block
 
To expand on my other thread about using a 400SBC with a roller cam in an L31 Vortec 350 application.


What is the best way to get to around 396 cubic inches in a GEN 1 SBC? Anyone know of any good kits, or is this a more of a select individual parts type of project?


The engine will be used in a 4000lb performance truck application. In this truck, I have to use this 4x reluctor wheel.
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...31reluctor.jpg

And the front timing cover on the left.
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...ngcovers-1.jpg

Fueling wont be an issue as I am using a marine MPFI intake manifold which allows conventional injectors to be used .
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...KE_250_161.jpg

instead of the CSFI poppets(top of this pic)
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...dercomparo.jpg


Truck will see lots of street/strip duty. Quality higher stall torque converter will be used. 4L65e will probably be used, possible 4l80e.
28" tire.
Overall acceleration will be the focus with this truck.
Vortec hread bolt pattern will be used. Production Vortec, AFR Vortec, ETC 170 or 200, GMPP 210 Fastburn, or GMPP Small 180cc port or Large 225cc port Bowtie Vortecs are head options. Any input on heads?

thanks

peace
Hog

vinniekq2 03-08-2013 11:21 AM

If your crank is 3.875 with a 4.060 bore that nets 401 cubes.you have to figure if your block has the room,its close

F-BIRD'88 03-08-2013 11:29 AM

There is a much more powerfull Marine EFI intake manifold for the vortec heads
and this purpose. It is more like a tunnel ram.
It is the Mercruiser Black Scorpion 377 CID 6.2L Ski boat motor manifold.
Makes very good power on stroker motors too.
Fits any of the vortec style heads.
Much more powerfull than the intake You are using.

F-BIRD'88 03-08-2013 11:47 AM

You'd be better off building a better more powerfull 383 using your vortec block and the Black Scorpion/vortec marine manifold than trying to mix and match 400SBC and vortec engine parts like the plastic timing cover.

ap72 03-08-2013 12:52 PM

you'd be best off forgetting the stupid vortec bolt pattern requirement and using one of the standard intake available.
why that rule?

a 3.875" stroke can be made to work, just be careful on rod selection.

Honestly it won't have much advantage over a 383, and be a little more prone to wear issues.

hcompton 03-08-2013 06:59 PM

If your not shooting for a full race motor. You will save alot of cash by staying with the 383 build.

If your want bigger best to go with the 400 block or aftermarket tall deck block. But the cost of both will buy good parts for a 383 build that should net as much power and be strong as hell. Fully forged 383 kits have been worked out and beat up for years. Most of the major issues have been sorted.

You can hit 400 hp with a cheap 383 kit and a good set of heads and cam. Add forged internals and roller you should hit 500 without much problem lots of 500 hp range 383 builds to choose from.

If you need more go with a dart tall deck block for an engine up to 455 cubes in the small block package.

ap72 03-08-2013 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcompton (Post 1654891)
If your not shooting for a full race motor. You will save alot of cash by staying with the 383 build.

If your want bigger best to go with the 400 block or aftermarket tall deck block. But the cost of both will buy good parts for a 383 build that should net as much power and be strong as hell. Fully forged 383 kits have been worked out and beat up for years. Most of the major issues have been sorted.

You can hit 400 hp with a cheap 383 kit and a good set of heads and cam. Add forged internals and roller you should hit 500 without much problem lots of 500 hp range 383 builds to choose from.

If you need more go with a dart tall deck block for an engine up to 455 cubes in the small block package.

If money is tight he could even use a cast 383 crane and hyper pistons for 500hp and put the money in a better set of heads and intake, cam and headers

Unless there's a rule I'd forget the vortec pattern and go with what works.

Hogg 03-09-2013 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 (Post 1654750)
There is a much more powerfull Marine EFI intake manifold for the vortec heads
and this purpose. It is more like a tunnel ram.
It is the Mercruiser Black Scorpion 377 CID 6.2L Ski boat motor manifold.
Makes very good power on stroker motors too.
Fits any of the vortec style heads.
Much more powerfull than the intake You are using.

I am aware of that intake, the intake I am using is a direct replacement for the stock truck intake, and mcuh better than said stock intake. I have it, its installed and works MUCH better.

The Scorpion tunnel ram you are talking about sold out just a few months ago. New units were for sale very inexpensively by Edelbrock as leftovers from Merc tunnelram production, but I would still need to fab an upper plenum as the stock Scorpion plenum isnt suitable, unless it can be rotated 180║.

The cross ram MPFI Merc intake I pictured was used on the 300-330hp 6.2' engines, the tunne ram you speak of was used on the 330-400 hp Scorpion engines.

Scorpion lower tunnelram, different marine upper with progressive marine t-body
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...lowerupper.jpg

Same intake installed
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...minstalled.jpg


Here is an Indmar non-Vortec intake Its on ebay right now

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...dmarintake.jpg
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...ndmarfront.jpg

I dont knop how they run the ignition as there is no distributor hole.

peace
Hog

Hogg 03-09-2013 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ap72 (Post 1654783)
you'd be best off forgetting the stupid vortec bolt pattern requirement and using one of the standard intake available.
why that rule?

a 3.875" stroke can be made to work, just be careful on rod selection.

Honestly it won't have much advantage over a 383, and be a little more prone to wear issues.

Why that rule? Just because I have Vortec stuff(heads/intakes) here.

Sorry you find my requirement "stupid".

peace
Hog

Hogg 03-09-2013 10:05 AM

Sounds like staying at 383 cubes and optimizing the package would be best. This isnt an all out race engine, just a fun street/strip machine economy and driveabilty concerns are minmal

Headers 1 5/8 x 2.5" collectors into dual 2 1/2" exhaust that crosses over to the passenger side into dual 2 1/2" cats then exits out the pass. side via dual 4" pipes.

I have full PCM tuning ability. I am running 25 lb/hr(at 3 BAR-43.5psi) stainless steel Multec 2/EV6 injectors which flow 28.8 lb/hr(4BAR=58psi).

It just seems as though lots of people do 383's and few of them run as I feel they should.
There was a guy who did a Vortec headed 383 with GM LT4 hotcam kit, stock L31 truck intake and fuel system and he dynoed 330rwhp/381rwtq with home ported L31 heads and headers and a 3000rpm Vigilante TC. He got his extended cab 2wd 98 truck into the mid 13's.
His truck is one of the few 383's that runs decently.

I dont feel the GM HT383(340hp@4500rpm/435 lb/ft@4000rpm with cam 196║/206║ lift of 0.431"/.451" LSA 109║ is worth the money12499101=$4759.
Or the HT383-E 17800393 crate which is an HT383, minus teh carb intake, plus new distributer, L31 spec balancer, new wires and plugs. Cost is $5199.
The 4340 crank in them certainly doesnt look pretty and its the same exact longblock that they use in the ZZ383,- p/n 12498772-$5459- 425hp@5400rpm/449 lb/ft@5400rpm with the 222║/230║ .509/.528"lift 112║LSA.
GMPP states that deviating from the specific intake they use on the ZZ383 can reduce power by 20hp. Makes sense.

This is starting to seem like a nice 6.0 LQ4 with a cam and headers would be more economical. I would like to stay with the GEN 1/1E family, I dont know why, nostalgia maybe???

Decisions decisions.

peace
Hog

ap72 03-09-2013 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hogg (Post 1655031)
Why that rule? Just because I have Vortec stuff(heads/intakes) here.

Sorry you find my requirement "stupid".

peace
Hog

You indicated you were buying heads not that you had them already. Saving money is t stupid.

Hogg 03-09-2013 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ap72 (Post 1655055)
You indicated you were buying heads not that you had them already. Saving money is t stupid.

I hear you.
Looking for suggestions on the Vortec type heads, just wondering on what people are using.
Still havent run into anyone who has used the AFR Vortec heads p/n 912 1900cc heads. They have an EO for emissions as well.

I see that the LargeportVortec heads are now sporting a 225cc intake port runner.
I assume they would be a bad choice on a 383??

I have always been interested in the FAstburn heads as well, they are 210cc.
LT4 technology in a 23║ GEN 1E SBC head.

Thanks for all the input.

peace
Hog

cobalt327 03-09-2013 09:42 PM

Are you aware that the 880 block has less bore at the bottoms of the cylinders (photo of 880 block below)? Something to consider w/a stroker combo. This has been written about here and elsewhere already, you can do a search for more.

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w..._DEPTH_002.jpg

ap72 03-10-2013 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hogg (Post 1655123)
I hear you.
Looking for suggestions on the Vortec type heads, just wondering on what people are using.
Still havent run into anyone who has used the AFR Vortec heads p/n 912 1900cc heads. They have an EO for emissions as well.

I see that the LargeportVortec heads are now sporting a 225cc intake port runner.
I assume they would be a bad choice on a 383??

I have always been interested in the FAstburn heads as well, they are 210cc.
LT4 technology in a 23║ GEN 1E SBC head.

Thanks for all the input.

peace
Hog

The fast burn heads are really nice pieces and would probably be the best match, not that the big port vortecs would be lacking but they're are a little too big unless you're looking at race only or big cubes. All those heads you listed will be chocked by that marine intake though, a ram jet style setup would be similar to what you have but perform much better.

Hogg 03-11-2013 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobalt327 (Post 1655211)
Are you aware that the 880 block has less bore at the bottoms of the cylinders (photo of 880 block below)? Something to consider w/a stroker combo. This has been written about here and elsewhere already, you can do a search for more.

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w..._DEPTH_002.jpg

I think read something about that. The 880 block is what a lot of the GMPP crate engines are buit off of, including the ZZ383/HT383/HT383-E. Before the 880 block, the 638 block was used. The 638 block was used on some early GM 383 engines.

Casting numbers:
10243880 = 95-00 Vortec truck, 2- or 4-bolt mains, roller cam, one-piece rear seal. All have full provisions for factory roller cam: thrust plate and lifter retainers bosses tapped.

14093638-was an 87-95 HD 350 block

Apparently the 638 block has roughly an extra 1/2" of cylinder bore at the bottom of the bore compared to the 880 block. There are pictures, but the links have expired.

The GM 383's use the 4340 forged steel cranks with a 3.80" stroke. I wonder if you could offset that gring that crank?

I have seen a few of those cranks and they havent looked pretty. When the counterweights were drilled ofr balancing some of the holes werent even in the middle of the counterweight, the outside of a few of the holes actually opened up through the side of the counterweights. Just sloppy work.

It costs $1150 12489436, and is to be used with the GMPP 4.005" hyper pistons 88962748-$294 or 0.030" pistons 88962749-$289
5.7" PM rods-GM rated for 550hp-clearanced for cam for 383 use-19169670 $450.

Appears as though this crank is internally balanced as well.

peace
Hog


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