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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2011, 10:54 AM
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Yes, overlap the outside then you would need to bump hammer the patch slightly to smoothen with filler.

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Old 01-07-2011, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjperotti
Yes, overlap the outside then you would need to bump hammer the patch slightly to smoothen with filler.
thanks for the info. ill give it a try on the next panel. what can i loose
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Old 01-07-2011, 11:18 AM
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Youíre welcome. Around a door handle I would flange the area. Normally I use screws first to attach my patch in place, then fill weld the holes after I tack weld the patch in place. Door handles are a high stress area for butt welding.
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Old 01-07-2011, 11:54 AM
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On every other board I've ever read, the consensus us that Butt welding is the best way to do it.

Further, on a reiteration where both sides I'd the panel Are visible, butt welding is really the only way to do it.

I think there must be another answer.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:31 PM
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You will see butt welding on a lot of forums that doesnít make it the best recommended weld available. It is the stupidest weld to use on any structural repair or replacement panel period.

ASI and most manufacturers donít recommend butt welding replacement panels and for a reason. If you want to butt weld do so at your own risk.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:46 PM
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butt weld and tig . he's just trying to shave door handles. just what structure is he dealing with. and yes mig welds are harder. most times when they ghost it's because too much weld was left .
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:24 PM
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I've been doing this for 40 ys and the only time I've seen this happen is back in the days when we used bass and a torch. You didn't use a flux coated wire by any chance did you.
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Old 01-07-2011, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swvalcon
I've been doing this for 40 ys and the only time I've seen this happen is back in the days when we used bass and a torch. You didn't use a flux coated wire by any chance did you.
no flux core wire. welder is the same setup the guys use for all the shop collision work. theres not a lot of butt welding on there side that i see but we have never had anything come back because of ghosting issues. like i said if the panel had a factory-ish peel to it, it would hardly be noticeable. but when the panel is flat it stands out.
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:36 PM
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i thought this might be interesting to the debate here. i shortened it to the relevent parts:


http://en.allexperts.com/q/Auto-body...n-panels-3.htm




Butt welding is no way to install a panel, it goes against every rule of modern panel sectioning as outlined by all the manufactures, and I-car. Even if you section it through the window frames, butt welding is an unsafe procedure. (snip)

If you don't mind I'd like to ask you to elaborate further on why lap welding vs butt welding replacement panels. I see it done all the time on shows like Overhaulin, American Hot Rod, and in how-to mag articles and I see them lap some too.


If you do this with 2 flat pieces of sheet, then dress the weld down, the weld is easily broken or torn apart when bent. That is why the flanger is best. The metal seam should be completely welded together, with 1/2 inch seam welds. I also will do plug welds every couple of inches, that is just a 5/16 hole drilled into the new panel, abut 1/8 or so below the lip. This adds extra strength. The reason you see guys butt welding on cars on TV shows is just for speed, or for show vehicles that the guys don't want any seams showing in the trunk, or pure ignorance of what heat does to sheet metal. Also, sometimes it's impossible, or impractical, to flange the existing panel to accept a patch. The thinking is, that the lap is a place for rust to start, which is true. I look at it from a stand point of strength, because I'm a collision repair expert. I'll sacrifice a little longevity to gain strength. The vehicle surviving an accident in the area I repaired is incredibly important to me, from a personal and legal stand point. If I butt welded a panel in, and another vehicle blasts through the panel like it isn't there, then I jeopardized that person's safety. That is why I don't like butt welds, the heat permanently weakens the metal, no matter how much skill was involved in the repair. According to I-car, even my flanging technique isn't acceptable on rocker splices, sail panel splices, and splicing a panel through the windows. Much less a butt weld! I-car says to fit the pieces up, and trim them like you are going to do a butt weld, but leave a 1/16 gap between the panels. Then, you take a 2 inch wide piece of sheet metal from the old panel, fit it up and under the existing panel. Then you plug weld it into place, leaving 1 inch sticking down that the new panel laps on to. Then, you drill 5/ 16 plug weld holes into the new panel, every 1-1/2 inches. The new panel is fitted, and the panel is attached at the seam with plug welds. Then, the seam is closed with half inch stitch welds. It's incredibly strong, but prone to catching water. So, it needs undercoated with paraffin based under coat. Sound familiar? But, when I send a young woman and her little children down the drive, I know that if they get hit, my repair will protect them, and the car will react in the way the manufacturer intended.


William Forster
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22 year veteran, 2 years of vocational training. A.S.E. certified Master collision repair/refinish technician. I-CAR certified. 17 yrs. GM experience. I can answer most questions related to automotive body repairs, ranging from small scratch repairs all the way up to the most extensive collision repairs.

Last edited by freethinker52; 01-07-2011 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spitfire481
the pocket has to stay there, cant be cut out because the inner handle/latch assembly is built to work with the pocket in the sheet metal. if i overlapped on the outside i beleive the area would be too high for me to be able to make the handle work proerly. the patch is welded in flush with the door skin but i also drilled some holes in the pocket from inside the door so shoot rust fighter in there for protection.
He didnt remove the pocket he shaved so the "structural integrity" is still there.
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underground
He didnt remove the pocket he shaved so the "structural integrity" is still there.
correct. you cant remove the cup section because the inner working all function around that. so my patch panel was just to cover the cup section and make it level with the rest of the door. factory door handle area for reference:



here is an end result for reference:

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Old 01-07-2011, 04:54 PM
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[QUOTE=freethinker52]i thought this might be interesting to the debate here. i shortened it to the relevent parts:


http://en.allexperts.com/q/Auto-body...n-panels-3.htm





If I butt welded a panel in, and another vehicle blasts through the panel like it isn't there, then I jeopardized that person's safety.QUOTE]


Funny, I've been in the collision industry for 22 years and have NEVER seen panel "blasted through" that was butt welded. HAVE seen LOTS that were rusted through(which is a HUGE structural integrity problem )that have been lap welded.
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Old 01-07-2011, 05:05 PM
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Now that you've supplied pictures of the actual project it is different than I imagined. Flanging would be difficult to say the least; however, not impossible. Ninety degree cuts would have to be implemented and then bent in slightly with pliers.

Underground good research. However, I disagree with the authors statement that I-car doesn't recommend flanging as I took courses where they used demonstration videos using that very method.
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Old 01-07-2011, 05:37 PM
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The paragraph cited seems to be more about whole panels, and structural parts like roof pillars, not small patches.

When doing structural parts like unibody frame rails, I used almost the exact procedure the listed, even though I had never seen it written out before.

For small patches to replace rust, which I don't consider structurally significant, I did butt weld. I guess one could argue that any patch in any panel is structural, but I'm not buying that.When I had significant rust, I replaced the whole panel at the factory joint with similar spaced plug welds.

Nowhere in the cited article did they talk about the patch being visible or not after filler.

As for the subject of this thread, obviously there is no structural consideration.
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Old 01-07-2011, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjperotti
Now that you've supplied pictures of the actual project it is different than I imagined. Flanging would be difficult to say the least; however, not impossible. Ninety degree cuts would have to be implemented and then bent in slightly with pliers.

Underground good research. However, I disagree with the authors statement that I-car doesn't recommend flanging as I took courses where they used demonstration videos using that very method.
1) how is flanging this piece going to do any good? How are you going to weld the flanges to anything (through in inside of the door?
2) I didn't do the research. Freethinker did.
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