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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2013, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jokerZ71 View Post
I would think if the rings were letting that much oil get by from not seating,you would have noticeable smoke & a good amount of blowby.I would be leaning more to a problem up high.Crushed seals,bad guides,intake gasket,in that order.Dropping a new set of seals in & double ckn the retainer to seal clearance would be a good way place to start.
Joker, you were right about the seal as a first choice!

Thanks



Duke
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2013, 08:45 PM
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That'll do it. Now,to figure out why it happened??? If retainer to seal clearance is good,maybe the seal wasn't fully seated ??? Also,ck valve stem for burrs or ruffness.It could have hung on the stem & pulled out of place.You also stated that guides were cut.Double ck the sizing on those as well.If the OD is too large,they coulda split on installation.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2013, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
It would be telling on the intake valve guides or seals (less likely to be the exhaust side) for passing oil. If it were to be the intake gasket, say, I wouldn't think they'd ALL show the same amount of fouling and on both sides equally, and it wouldn't be as well defined where the good and bad sides of the plugs are.
Well, I did as you suggested Cabolt, and returned the plugs to their respective holes and marked with a sharpie the inlet valve location, and every single plug had the crud build up lining right up with the sharpie mark...
I then picked the worst cylinder and removed the springs and seals. The o-ring seal was fine, but the Viton seal looks like this (pic). The seal slides through the inner spring with clearance, but somehow seems to have been crushed and split.
Upon measuring the inner diameter of the seal, at the smaller ID ignoring the bevel cut on the inside edge, I get 13.6mm or .535"
and the boss that the seal needs to slide over measures at 14.6mm or .574"
Perhaps I have the wrong seals?

Thanks for ur help,


Duke
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2013, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jokerZ71 View Post
That'll do it. Now,to figure out why it happened??? If retainer to seal clearance is good,maybe the seal wasn't fully seated ??? Also,ck valve stem for burrs or ruffness.It could have hung on the stem & pulled out of place.You also stated that guides were cut.Double ck the sizing on those as well.If the OD is too large,they coulda split on installation.
Yeah the guides were cut down. My machinest borrow a cutter of a mate of his at the time that but must have been the wrong one. I've measured them now and they are still .570" ish. The seals have ID of .530". I can't find seals online that size. Looks like its gonna be heads off at least at this stage to recut the guide boss to accept the .530" seals. Howard make a cutter .531" and Manley one .530". May have to invest in one of them.
That'll give me a good look at the bores anyways.
Plus looks like a got coolant weeping from a head stud!


Duke
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 04:22 AM
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.530 is the the common aftermarket size.Several companies make a cutter,or,you can get seals with the larger diameter.Some guide bosses run up to .580.I forget which heads you have.IIRC,Vortecs can run from .555 to .580 or so.You may be able to use a set of seals for those.They have larger ID seals available. Just not as commonly available.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwhiteduke View Post
The seal slides through the inner spring with clearance, but somehow seems to have been crushed and split.
Have you ever seen valve springs dance around like a fat girl with cooties?
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jokerZ71 View Post
.530 is the the common aftermarket size.Several companies make a cutter,or,you can get seals with the larger diameter.Some guide bosses run up to .580.I forget which heads you have.IIRC,Vortecs can run from .555 to .580 or so.You may be able to use a set of seals for those.They have larger ID seals available. Just not as commonly available.

Thanks, I'm trying to source some larger seals ATM , not easy here.
Alex's Parts Sales has a huge range in fixed and flexi Viton but the largest I see in stock is a flexi type to fit .520" - .565".
I got .575" and I've contacted them and waiting for a reply.
The vortec I googled had .560" but I'll keep researching. I'm running sportsman II's and have had no experience with vortec heads.
I'm going to try the local GMH Dealership here when they open this morning.


Duke
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Have you ever seen valve springs dance around like a fat girl with cooties?
Valvespring at 7000 RPM - YouTube
Yeah I've seen that before, it amazes me how the whole package stays together!
When I first assembled the heads, I only used the small o-rings. Then I thought better of that decision and fitted the Viton seals. My problem is, being a novice, when the spring pocket/guide boss tool was used , I simply assumed that it would have been the .530" guide cut size, and ordered seals for that size.
At the time I fitted them, I remember thinking 'that's not a very good fit' but carried on regardless. My own fault. So now the seals have been smashed over the too large a boss millions of times...end of story.
I do hope that the seals are the only problem part allowing the oil to the cylinders. Indexing the plugs sure indicated that.
I don't mind taking the heads off at some point to have a look, but I'd rather do it when it suits me - now ain't that time.
I'd still like to run a leakdown test. Never done one before and don't really know how to. Don't have a leakdown tester and don't know whether I need to buy a 'good' one, or I can get away with 'crap' one. I don't like crap tools and usually buy the best I can afford.
Any suggestions on leakdown testers are welcome!


Duke
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 06:58 PM
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There is a co. on the net called" U.S. Seals" google them , they have a huge number of valve seals , I can't speak to availability , but they would have what you need ![It's the co. brodix buys their seals from ]
dave
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 08:58 PM
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I believe the seals, being too small for the guide boss, worked their way upwards off of the oversized guide bosses, allowing the retainers to hit them, causing the damage seen.

Duke, your Sportsman 2 heads may not have this, but many production SBC heads suffered from core shift that causes the guides to be off center from the exact center of the guide boss. This causes a positive type seal to be distorted (see fuelie head below). If the head has been machined for positive seals that fit onto the guide boss (like some later SBC production heads and most aftermarket heads), or the guide boss is machined for positive seals w/a cutter, this problem is eliminated. So if you are able to find seals to fit the existing guide boss size, be sure there's no core shift to give you grief.

You mentioned having two valve springs. Are they true dual springs or are they a single spring w/a damper? True dual springs require a retainer that will locate both springs correctly. The installed height also needs to be verified, along w/the other important areas. Links below for more on this.

Earlier you mentioned using the cork end seals under the intake manifold. Sometimes using them- especially on an engine that's had the block decked- will cause the intake to sit too high, allowing the intake gaskets to leak vacuum/pull in oil from the lifter valley. I would strongly recommend you use RTV instead: 1/4" bead applied to the cleaned front sand rear surfaces of the block, allow RTV to skin over per the instructions, then install the clean intake straight down, w/o excessive movement to line up the bolt holes. Acetone or carb cleaner spray on a clean rag will work for degreasing the surfaces before applying RTV.



Valve train points to check
Valve train geometry
Valve spring installed height
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2old2fast View Post
There is a co. on the net called" U.S. Seals" google them , they have a huge number of valve seals , I can't speak to availability , but they would have what you need ![It's the co. brodix buys their seals from ]
dave
Thanks Dave
I googled them without success, I couldn't see anything that even resembled a valve guide seal. Then I went to the Brodie site, and they made mention that their seal come from us seal (among others) , but they didn't list a seal in the size that I need, 11/32" .575" I drew a blank with Alex's Parts Sales as well.
Comp Cams don't seem to have that size either, even though they sell a cutter that reduces the guide boss to .560" they don't list a seal that size - weird.
There is another co called Pan Pacific Seals & components they show a photo of a vast array of seals, but doesn't give any specs??

Cabolt, have you encountered any seals that size or close?
I don't want to take the heads off just to cut the bosses to .530" for the sake of 20 or 30$ worth of seals - seems crazy.



Duke
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
I believe the seals, being too small for the guide boss, worked their way upwards off of the oversized guide bosses, allowing the retainers to hit them, causing the damage seen.

Duke, your Sportsman 2 heads may not have this, but many production SBC heads suffered from core shift that causes the guides to be off center from the exact center of the guide boss. This causes a positive type seal to be distorted (see fuelie head below). If the head has been machined for positive seals that fit onto the guide boss (like some later SBC production heads and most aftermarket heads), or the guide boss is machined for positive seals w/a cutter, this problem is eliminated. So if you are able to find seals to fit the existing guide boss size, be sure there's no core shift to give you grief.

You mentioned having two valve springs. Are they true dual springs or are they a single spring w/a damper? True dual springs require a retainer that will locate both springs correctly. The installed height also needs to be verified, along w/the other important areas. Links below for more on this.

Earlier you mentioned using the cork end seals under the intake manifold. Sometimes using them- especially on an engine that's had the block decked- will cause the intake to sit too high, allowing the intake gaskets to leak vacuum/pull in oil from the lifter valley. I would strongly recommend you use RTV instead: 1/4" bead applied to the cleaned front sand rear surfaces of the block, allow RTV to skin over per the instructions, then install the clean intake straight down, w/o excessive movement to line up the bolt holes. Acetone or carb cleaner spray on a clean rag will work for degreasing the surfaces before applying RTV.



Valve train points to check
Valve train geometry
Valve spring installed height
They are the correct springs for the cam , being dual spring plus damper (flat wound) the guide boss was too big for the ID of the inner springs, and had to be cut IIRC the seal receiving section of the boss was cut also. Only one cutter was used. It was a Manley cutter from memory. If cutters are available to cut both the inner spring section and the sale section of the boss in one operation, then it's a possibility that was what was used. If not , then maybe just the spring locating part of the boss and the spring pocket was cut. In any case the size of the seal part of the the boss is now .575" and I need a seal that size , or real close.
I assembled the heads my self at the shop and set the installed heights , seat and open pressures to spec. Using a .020" shim, they came up just about perfect, IIRC ever so slightly 'under' pressure.

The block had only .010" of it and I blueprinted the intake manifold and it line up real good, even with the cork at the ends. I'm not saying that it isn't leaking but I'd be real surprised if it was. I trimmed the port side of the gasket openings where necessary to eliminate any gasket hangover , used GM sealant at the ports, water and at the cork with a dob of permatex RTV at the corners. I was real pleased with the way it went on.

I indexed the plugs as u suggested and the crud positioning was consistently in line with the intake valve positions.

Pretty sure I just need some damn seals, so I don't have to rip the thing apart.



Duke
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 10:56 PM
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Cometic Seals

I have located some Cometic seals that have suitable height and OD specs.
The guide boss OD specified for these seals is .562"
As my guide size is .576", this leaves an interference of approx .014"
One type of the seals is the Metal Jacket Viton bad the other is Ring and Band Viton.
Do you think either of these may work? They are going to be 'tight'.
Do you think that one type may have a better chance of going on and staying on than the other - assuming they go on at all.
.014"...... .007" each side of the guide boss??
What do you think?

Thanks,

Duke
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 12:03 AM
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I think either is within reason as far as the 'interference' fit goes. I see no added benefit in using the more expensive metal jacket seal so I'd use the ring and band type myself. No idea what the difference is between p/n 3164 and 3168.



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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
I think either is within reason as far as the 'interference' fit goes. I see no added benefit in using the more expensive metal jacket seal so I'd use the ring and band type myself. No idea what the difference is between p/n 3164 and 3168.




I have no idea either what the difference is between p/n 3164 and 3192 (I presume that's what you meant) either??

I hope they ship abroad

Thank you for all your help and advice.
I do appreciate it.



Duke
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