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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jokerZ71 View Post
.530 is the the common aftermarket size.Several companies make a cutter,or,you can get seals with the larger diameter.Some guide bosses run up to .580.I forget which heads you have.IIRC,Vortecs can run from .555 to .580 or so.You may be able to use a set of seals for those.They have larger ID seals available. Just not as commonly available.

Thanks, I'm trying to source some larger seals ATM , not easy here.
Alex's Parts Sales has a huge range in fixed and flexi Viton but the largest I see in stock is a flexi type to fit .520" - .565".
I got .575" and I've contacted them and waiting for a reply.
The vortec I googled had .560" but I'll keep researching. I'm running sportsman II's and have had no experience with vortec heads.
I'm going to try the local GMH Dealership here when they open this morning.


Duke

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Have you ever seen valve springs dance around like a fat girl with cooties?
Valvespring at 7000 RPM - YouTube
Yeah I've seen that before, it amazes me how the whole package stays together!
When I first assembled the heads, I only used the small o-rings. Then I thought better of that decision and fitted the Viton seals. My problem is, being a novice, when the spring pocket/guide boss tool was used , I simply assumed that it would have been the .530" guide cut size, and ordered seals for that size.
At the time I fitted them, I remember thinking 'that's not a very good fit' but carried on regardless. My own fault. So now the seals have been smashed over the too large a boss millions of times...end of story.
I do hope that the seals are the only problem part allowing the oil to the cylinders. Indexing the plugs sure indicated that.
I don't mind taking the heads off at some point to have a look, but I'd rather do it when it suits me - now ain't that time.
I'd still like to run a leakdown test. Never done one before and don't really know how to. Don't have a leakdown tester and don't know whether I need to buy a 'good' one, or I can get away with 'crap' one. I don't like crap tools and usually buy the best I can afford.
Any suggestions on leakdown testers are welcome!


Duke
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 07:58 PM
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There is a co. on the net called" U.S. Seals" google them , they have a huge number of valve seals , I can't speak to availability , but they would have what you need ![It's the co. brodix buys their seals from ]
dave
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 09:58 PM
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I believe the seals, being too small for the guide boss, worked their way upwards off of the oversized guide bosses, allowing the retainers to hit them, causing the damage seen.

Duke, your Sportsman 2 heads may not have this, but many production SBC heads suffered from core shift that causes the guides to be off center from the exact center of the guide boss. This causes a positive type seal to be distorted (see fuelie head below). If the head has been machined for positive seals that fit onto the guide boss (like some later SBC production heads and most aftermarket heads), or the guide boss is machined for positive seals w/a cutter, this problem is eliminated. So if you are able to find seals to fit the existing guide boss size, be sure there's no core shift to give you grief.

You mentioned having two valve springs. Are they true dual springs or are they a single spring w/a damper? True dual springs require a retainer that will locate both springs correctly. The installed height also needs to be verified, along w/the other important areas. Links below for more on this.

Earlier you mentioned using the cork end seals under the intake manifold. Sometimes using them- especially on an engine that's had the block decked- will cause the intake to sit too high, allowing the intake gaskets to leak vacuum/pull in oil from the lifter valley. I would strongly recommend you use RTV instead: 1/4" bead applied to the cleaned front sand rear surfaces of the block, allow RTV to skin over per the instructions, then install the clean intake straight down, w/o excessive movement to line up the bolt holes. Acetone or carb cleaner spray on a clean rag will work for degreasing the surfaces before applying RTV.



Valve train points to check
Valve train geometry
Valve spring installed height
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2old2fast View Post
There is a co. on the net called" U.S. Seals" google them , they have a huge number of valve seals , I can't speak to availability , but they would have what you need ![It's the co. brodix buys their seals from ]
dave
Thanks Dave
I googled them without success, I couldn't see anything that even resembled a valve guide seal. Then I went to the Brodie site, and they made mention that their seal come from us seal (among others) , but they didn't list a seal in the size that I need, 11/32" .575" I drew a blank with Alex's Parts Sales as well.
Comp Cams don't seem to have that size either, even though they sell a cutter that reduces the guide boss to .560" they don't list a seal that size - weird.
There is another co called Pan Pacific Seals & components they show a photo of a vast array of seals, but doesn't give any specs??

Cabolt, have you encountered any seals that size or close?
I don't want to take the heads off just to cut the bosses to .530" for the sake of 20 or 30$ worth of seals - seems crazy.



Duke
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
I believe the seals, being too small for the guide boss, worked their way upwards off of the oversized guide bosses, allowing the retainers to hit them, causing the damage seen.

Duke, your Sportsman 2 heads may not have this, but many production SBC heads suffered from core shift that causes the guides to be off center from the exact center of the guide boss. This causes a positive type seal to be distorted (see fuelie head below). If the head has been machined for positive seals that fit onto the guide boss (like some later SBC production heads and most aftermarket heads), or the guide boss is machined for positive seals w/a cutter, this problem is eliminated. So if you are able to find seals to fit the existing guide boss size, be sure there's no core shift to give you grief.

You mentioned having two valve springs. Are they true dual springs or are they a single spring w/a damper? True dual springs require a retainer that will locate both springs correctly. The installed height also needs to be verified, along w/the other important areas. Links below for more on this.

Earlier you mentioned using the cork end seals under the intake manifold. Sometimes using them- especially on an engine that's had the block decked- will cause the intake to sit too high, allowing the intake gaskets to leak vacuum/pull in oil from the lifter valley. I would strongly recommend you use RTV instead: 1/4" bead applied to the cleaned front sand rear surfaces of the block, allow RTV to skin over per the instructions, then install the clean intake straight down, w/o excessive movement to line up the bolt holes. Acetone or carb cleaner spray on a clean rag will work for degreasing the surfaces before applying RTV.



Valve train points to check
Valve train geometry
Valve spring installed height
They are the correct springs for the cam , being dual spring plus damper (flat wound) the guide boss was too big for the ID of the inner springs, and had to be cut IIRC the seal receiving section of the boss was cut also. Only one cutter was used. It was a Manley cutter from memory. If cutters are available to cut both the inner spring section and the sale section of the boss in one operation, then it's a possibility that was what was used. If not , then maybe just the spring locating part of the boss and the spring pocket was cut. In any case the size of the seal part of the the boss is now .575" and I need a seal that size , or real close.
I assembled the heads my self at the shop and set the installed heights , seat and open pressures to spec. Using a .020" shim, they came up just about perfect, IIRC ever so slightly 'under' pressure.

The block had only .010" of it and I blueprinted the intake manifold and it line up real good, even with the cork at the ends. I'm not saying that it isn't leaking but I'd be real surprised if it was. I trimmed the port side of the gasket openings where necessary to eliminate any gasket hangover , used GM sealant at the ports, water and at the cork with a dob of permatex RTV at the corners. I was real pleased with the way it went on.

I indexed the plugs as u suggested and the crud positioning was consistently in line with the intake valve positions.

Pretty sure I just need some damn seals, so I don't have to rip the thing apart.



Duke
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:56 PM
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Cometic Seals

I have located some Cometic seals that have suitable height and OD specs.
The guide boss OD specified for these seals is .562"
As my guide size is .576", this leaves an interference of approx .014"
One type of the seals is the Metal Jacket Viton bad the other is Ring and Band Viton.
Do you think either of these may work? They are going to be 'tight'.
Do you think that one type may have a better chance of going on and staying on than the other - assuming they go on at all.
.014"...... .007" each side of the guide boss??
What do you think?

Thanks,

Duke
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 01:03 AM
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I think either is within reason as far as the 'interference' fit goes. I see no added benefit in using the more expensive metal jacket seal so I'd use the ring and band type myself. No idea what the difference is between p/n 3164 and 3168.



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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
I think either is within reason as far as the 'interference' fit goes. I see no added benefit in using the more expensive metal jacket seal so I'd use the ring and band type myself. No idea what the difference is between p/n 3164 and 3168.




I have no idea either what the difference is between p/n 3164 and 3192 (I presume that's what you meant) either??

I hope they ship abroad

Thank you for all your help and advice.
I do appreciate it.



Duke
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 02:19 AM
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Yes, 3164 and 3192.
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:27 AM
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TWD , search "valve seals/us seal"
dave
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwhiteduke View Post
I haven't used any octane booster. I've heard that's a load of crap. One point really equal .1 of a point. Haven't needed it. Our premium fuel here is pretty darn good, and I haven't detected any pinging, at least not my ears.
I'm putting my money on too much ZDDP in the oil mix. - my bad.

The engine runs strong to 6500 , I haven't take it past that and haven't had the need to.

I'll pull it down if necessary to sharpen up the bores with new rings , don't matter to me, it's a fun car and I want it running sweet.

I'm seriously considering the BonAmi option, I'm not joking, if that is a viable solution. It would be a WHOLE lot quicker and much less expensive trial if there were no adverse consequences to the engine if it didn't work. I wonder if anyone has really tried this? How much BonAmi ? Do I mix it with fuel and pour it in?

What is the procedure?

I live and learn ...



Duke
My dad was a Buick mechanic in the late 50's early 60's. It was an official Buick fix to seat the rings on new cars with BonAmi applied at a high idle (2500 RPM or so).
I've read the bulletin from Buick but don't have the link anymore. It was a factory fix only if the vehicle used more than 3 quarts in 500 miles. (new car of course). Before this fix they used to tie the choke half closed and drive them from Prescott Az. to Phoenix and back to seat the rings (bout 200 miles).
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2013, 05:27 PM
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Disturbing Images Viewer Discrection Advised

Put a scope in yesterday and was shocked at the buildup...

Heads are coming off today.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2013, 05:29 PM
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Another, took a bunch pics - these are the worst ones.
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Old 10-04-2013, 05:31 PM
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Top of piston.
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