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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2013, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fang16 View Post
Don't forget to take into account that the pix are magnified by the tool. In the old days we used water or auto tranny fluid at a high idle, 2000-2500 RPM and pore it in till the motor chokes down. Let it get back up to rpm again Do that a couple of times then take another look. Old school but worth a try.
Yeah that's true, they look huge in the pics, hard to get a good pic, I had to take a snap shot with my fone of the screen of the tool, so is pretty secondhand.
I can get the sea foam, so I'll use that.

Thanks



Duke

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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2013, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
I'd at least use the umbrella seals they (used to) come with on the exhaust side.

IMO just removing the crud using sea foam and replacing the seals may not fully address the "why's" of there being crud there in the first place. There's no replacement for physically inspecting/measuring the guides and seats to see what you really have. I don't know what current production Sportsman 2 heads are like but in the past the valve guides have been too loose in some heads. this can cause heads to have eccentric seats as well. I'd check them over carefully and give them what they need- up to and including a fresh valve job and replacement guides (IIRC the factory guides are the cast iron of the head casting).

You can estimate the guide to valve clearance w/the heads still on the engine if you want to go that route before/instead of tearing it down.

FWIW, the MSDS for sea foam says it's made up of isopropyl alcohol, pale oil (mineral oil) and naphtha.

EDIT- Just read your last post, nothing wrong w/trying the easy way first.
Both the intake and exhaust valve guide seals have been riding up and down with the valve, going along for the ride - as it were. And getting smashed to smithereens !

I'll try to estimate the stem clearance with a dial indicator on the stem - close to the guide boss as I do the seals, that's the only way I can think of checking it.

Thanks



Duke
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2013, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jokerZ71 View Post
Like I said,I use the vac hose from my brake booster.I pour about half a bottle into a bowl like container & dab the end of hose in & out.If draw too much in @ once,your engine will most likely go dead.You want to add slowly.Too much @ once could hydrolock the motor.That would take quite a bit tho.I then put a whole bottle into a half tank of fuel.I wouldn't rule out some of that build up maybe coming from too much ZDDP additive in your oil.They say it will ruin catylitic convertors.I'm assuming from possibly stopping them up.
Ok, got it

Cheers



Duke
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2013, 12:23 PM
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Just to clarify, umbrella seals ride up and down on the stems, but they're made w/a large enough ID at their bottoms to allow them to miss hitting the guide boss. Similar to one's head (representing the guide boss) inside an umbrella (representing the umbrella seal *duh* lol). The way your seals were fitting caused them to pop off the guide boss (if they were pressed over the boss), allowing the too-small seal bottom ID to hit the guide boss instead of clearing it like an umbrella seal would do. Same thing happens if the torn up seals were installed like an umbrella seal (not pressed onto the boss). Obviously hitting the boss thousands of times a minute would tend to tear them up.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2013, 12:32 PM
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In all likelyhood,your current seals probably split on installation.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2013, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
Just to clarify, umbrella seals ride up and down on the stems, but they're made w/a large enough ID at their bottoms to allow them to miss hitting the guide boss. Similar to one's head (representing the guide boss) inside an umbrella (representing the umbrella seal *duh* lol). The way your seals were fitting caused them to pop off the guide boss (if they were pressed over the boss), allowing the too-small seal bottom ID to hit the guide boss instead of clearing it like an umbrella seal would do. Same thing happens if the torn up seals were installed like an umbrella seal (not pressed onto the boss). Obviously hitting the boss thousands of times a minute would tend to tear them up.

Oh, ok. That kinda makes sense because IIRC , the exhaust seals did seam to fit over the boss with ease, so perhaps they are functioning as they should. They're the SS 72526 ones and they appear to be intact - but I'll check..



Duke
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2013, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwhiteduke View Post
Oh, ok. That kinda makes sense because IIRC , the exhaust seals did seam to fit over the boss with ease, so perhaps they are functioning as they should. They're the SS 72526 ones and they appear to be intact - but I'll check..



Duke
What did the scope show you on the exhaust side? If there were no large amounts of burned oil like the intakes, I'd say whatever was on there was doing their job and if that's the case I would use the same seals again as long as they were not being damaged like the too-small intake seals.

There's a trick to install new PC seals over the tips of the valves. Often a plastic valve tip protector will be furnished w/the seals. It's pushed over the tip of the valve and the seal is then slid onto the valve stem. The plastic protector keeps the edges of the valve tip from damaging the seal. If you don't get one w/the new seals, you can use a couple thicknesses of cellophane tape placed over the tip (the tape need not actually stick to the tip- it's just there to keep the seal and valve tip from contacting each other), then carefully press the seal on.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2013, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
What did the scope show you on the exhaust side? If there were no large amounts of burned oil like the intakes, I'd say whatever was on there was doing their job and if that's the case I would use the same seals again as long as they were not being damaged like the too-small intake seals.

There's a trick to install new PC seals over the tips of the valves. Often a plastic valve tip protector will be furnished w/the seals. It's pushed over the tip of the valve and the seal is then slid onto the valve stem. The plastic protector keeps the edges of the valve tip from damaging the seal. If you don't get one w/the new seals, you can use a couple thicknesses of cellophane tape placed over the tip (the tape need not actually stick to the tip- it's just there to keep the seal and valve tip from contacting each other), then carefully press the seal on.
The exhaust valves look clean and white , no oil build up like the intakes.
I'm fairly sure that they are undamaged but I'll inspect them cylinder at a time when I do the intakes - I'm using the rope trick. I haven't got the new intake seals as yet, still corresponding with the AUS dealer for Cometic, he's checking with Cometic/Ohio on those two part#'s with the same specs - want to make sure I get the closest fit available.

I still have the plastic protector from the last set, so it's all good there.

Thank you for your input.



Duke
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2013, 11:03 PM
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All good news, glad to hear the exhaust look good.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2013, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwhiteduke View Post
I have located some Cometic seals that have suitable height and OD specs.
The guide boss OD specified for these seals is .562"
As my guide size is .576", this leaves an interference of approx .014"
One type of the seals is the Metal Jacket Viton bad the other is Ring and Band Viton.
Do you think either of these may work? They are going to be 'tight'.
Do you think that one type may have a better chance of going on and staying on than the other - assuming they go on at all.
.014"...... .007" each side of the guide boss??
What do you think?

Thanks,

Duke
Ok, so I FINALLY got those damn Cometic seals delivered and on. According to the specs, they should have gone on and been 'just' a bit too tight, but still ok - I figured......well, they went on nice and snug and I felt good about the fit. However, when I go to put the inner spring on, (has two springs plus damper), the fuk'n spring wouldn't go over the steel band at the bottom of the seal. According to all my measurements, there should have been clearance, but no. The ID of seal was either smaller than advertised or Cometic take their measurements from a different spot than I would (them, the dia of the outside of the bevel at the inside bottom edge of the seal....me, the dia of the rest of the inside of the seal, the main part)

ANyway...when they were pushed on, the bloody things expanded that much that I couldn't get the spring over. I took the metal band off the bottom of the seal and the seal went over the boss still reasonably tight and spring went over the seal ok, just touched a bit as it went on.

I thought WTF I've waited near on 4 weeks for these bloody seals, I'm gonna give it a try.
So I set everything, warmed up the engine, put the Sea Foam through -don't know of that worked yet. Sea Foam in the tank too I went for a good drive.

Got home, took a rocker cover off and all the inlet seals that I'd just put on had lifted off the guide bosses and riding up and down along with the valves.

Now IDK if, because the inner springs were a bit snug over the seal, that they are grabbing it and pulling the seal off of the guide, or if because I removed the metal band form the seal, they loose tension when they get hot.
Either way, I'm fully over this seal thing and about to pull the heads and have the guide bosses machined for .500" or .530" and get the correct 'common' seals.

What I want to make sure of now, is that when I put the heads back together, the bloody seals stay on and don't leak.

Is there a minimum operating clearance between the spring ID and the seal OD.
How TIGHT should the fit be over the guide boss. I may have to go down to the .500" size to get the required spring to seal clearance. Just want to get it right this time.

Am I making any sense?



Duke
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2013, 07:15 PM
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The steel "band clamp" is what holds the seal in place , if you're going to use a positive seal w/ the springs you have I'm afraid you'll have to machine the guides..
dave
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2013, 01:35 AM
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Thanks Dave , as I thought. This time I'm going to get the 530 seals that comp recommend with the cam/springs etc to make sure all is compatible ..
Even gonna use their cutting tool LOL.. When I clean and inspect everything this time round I should be good to go.


Duke
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2013, 11:25 PM
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Ok, I finally received the necessary parts/tools to get my valve guide seal bosses down to a common size (.530") and the positive stop seals recommended by comp for my cam and springs.
Couple of q's. Can I use the comp tools and machine the guide bosses down to size myself? I have the .530" cutting tool and the 11/32" arbour as the guide.
Or should I have a machine shop perform the task. It doesn't seem terribly complicated. Lube the guide and guide tool and cut the cast dry? That's what I've heard. BTW, the sea foam worked to a degree, but nothing beats hand on mechanical cleaning, which is definately what was needed in my case, there was still a lot of carbon crud that needed to be removed.
Any thoughts appreciated.


Duke
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:01 AM
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I did a couple sets of heads w/a hand drill , worked just fine , the guide keeps you straight , the cutter "bottoms out " at the correct depth . Pretty straight forward..
dave
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 12-10-2013, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwhiteduke View Post
Your the third one to mention the Ajax/BonAmi thing to me in a week!
Maybe there's some truth in that?
I'm going to pull the plugs as soon as I get off this keyboard , and hopefully they WILL tell the story!
Thanks



Duke
BonAmi was an official Buick fix in the late 50's early 60's. My dad worked in a Buick dealership as a mechanic and told me about. I looked it up a couple years ago and Buick stated: if oil consumption exceeds 3 quarts in 1500 miles then use the BonAmi at high idle to break-in the rings.
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