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Old 09-30-2013, 05:46 AM
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Glazed Cylinder Bores?

I have fairly fresh 355 sbc in my 1968 Monaro thats done 4000 miles now since engine rebuild. It has a SCR of 11.48 : 1 and running a comp cams 294S cam with .035" quench, with locked out timing @35* Plus vacuum advance , Tranny is PG and 3.55 Diff ratio. Plugs are AR23 gapped at .035" . I followed Firebird '88 tuning and the car runs strong.

I have recently done a road trip of 1900 miles, return, to visit my mum and dad and used 125 US gallons of 98 octane (equal to US 93 , I think ) which equates to 15.2 mpg. - during the trip, I had a time when the carburettor was suffering a needle and seat issue/flooding the engine with fuel for 3 or 4 hours, and then the second half the trip , the return, incurred a fuel tank leak of about a drip per second for 15 hours, now fixed , I consider the MPG good, considering.

I am running a 750 double pumper mech Holley with 74 jets front and 84 jets rear with jet extentions. I hardly opened the secs , just occasionally.

My concern is with my oil consumption, I used between 6 and 8 litres of oil during the trip.

Because I have a flat tappet (solid ) cam, I added a 4 oz bottle of ZDDP additive to my oil Quoting 60,000 ppm ZDDP, 42,000 ppm Phosphates , 10,000 ppm Moly, (anal about cam failure) and have been running Penrite HPR-30 ,full zinc oil quoting approx 1600 ppm Zinc 20w/60w since engine new and ever since.

Although the zinc additive is a good thing for camshaft / lifter lobe interface surfaces, i am wondering if the additional / extra zinc/ slip modifiers has had an adverse impact on the bedding in of my rings to the bore.

I have 200psi cylinder pressures flat across the board and are happy with the performance of the engine, but feel that the oil consumption is somewhat high.
The engine does not ping at all and there is zero oil suck through the PCV.

I am wondering where the oil is going and if perhaps my bore surfaces are glazed. There are no external oil leaks.

IF my bores are glazed, is there a way to rectify the condition while the engine is intact? Can the 'glazing' be removed by flushing with solvent/thinners/toluene ? What is glazing anyway??

Is my engine still good to keep driving/ thrashing ?? Have i compromised my engine condition's out come?..Am I worrying about nothing???

Any thoughts are welcome...


Duke
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Old 09-30-2013, 07:34 AM
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That is excessive.Your using a liter of oil every 270 miles or so.You would think with comsumption that high,that if leaking,it should be easy to see.If burning that much,you would think it should be smoking.Possibly crushed valve seals would be my 1st ck,followed by the intake gasket.If that cks good'your rings may indeed did not not take a good seat.
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwhiteduke View Post
I have fairly fresh 355 sbc in my 1968 Monaro thats done 4000 miles now since engine rebuild. It has a SCR of 11.48 : 1 and running a comp cams 294S cam with .035" quench, with locked out timing @35* Plus vacuum advance , Tranny is PG and 3.55 Diff ratio. Plugs are AR23 gapped at .035" . I followed Firebird '88 tuning and the car runs strong.

I have recently done a road trip of 1900 miles, return, to visit my mum and dad and used 125 US gallons of 98 octane (equal to US 93 , I think ) which equates to 15.2 mpg. - during the trip, I had a time when the carburettor was suffering a needle and seat issue/flooding the engine with fuel for 3 or 4 hours, and then the second half the trip , the return, incurred a fuel tank leak of about a drip per second for 15 hours, now fixed , I consider the MPG good, considering.

I am running a 750 double pumper mech Holley with 74 jets front and 84 jets rear with jet extentions. I hardly opened the secs , just occasionally.

My concern is with my oil consumption, I used between 6 and 8 litres of oil during the trip.

Because I have a flat tappet (solid ) cam, I added a 4 oz bottle of ZDDP additive to my oil Quoting 60,000 ppm ZDDP, 42,000 ppm Phosphates , 10,000 ppm Moly, (anal about cam failure) and have been running Penrite HPR-30 ,full zinc oil quoting approx 1600 ppm Zinc 20w/60w since engine new and ever since.

Although the zinc additive is a good thing for camshaft / lifter lobe interface surfaces, i am wondering if the additional / extra zinc/ slip modifiers has had an adverse impact on the bedding in of my rings to the bore.

I have 200psi cylinder pressures flat across the board and are happy with the performance of the engine, but feel that the oil consumption is somewhat high.
The engine does not ping at all and there is zero oil suck through the PCV.

I am wondering where the oil is going and if perhaps my bore surfaces are glazed. There are no external oil leaks.

IF my bores are glazed, is there a way to rectify the condition while the engine is intact? Can the 'glazing' be removed by flushing with solvent/thinners/toluene ? What is glazing anyway??

Is my engine still good to keep driving/ thrashing ?? Have i compromised my engine condition's out come?..Am I worrying about nothing???

Any thoughts are welcome...


Duke
Wow that's a lot of oil. SBC's can get it down the valve guides due to inadaquate valve stem sealing: pull it into the intake from a bad gasket seal between the heads and intake manifold, this is common on engines with decked blocks and milled especially angle milled heads, inducted through the crankcase venting system, or certainly past the rings.

Glazing is deposition of resins and particles in the oil that form a tough smooth film on the cylinder walls usually takes an overheated condition over a long time.

This sounds like a race engine that's street driven, this can be difficult for such enignes.

Bogie
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Old 09-30-2013, 03:39 PM
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You need to determine where the oil's going. I'd run a leakdown test on it. But if the engine is burning that much oil, the plugs will be a dead giveaway. Once you figure out where the loss is (intake gaskets, PCV system, rings, guides, leaking), you can go about fixing it.

Years ago there were reports of the dealerships and individuals using BonAmi through the carb to seat rings that didn't seat properly during the initial engine break in. I've even heard some say this actually worked, although I'd not recommend it. If the rings haven't seated, I would lightly rehone/break the glaze w/a flex hone and use a fresh set of moly rings.

Last edited by cobalt327; 09-30-2013 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 09-30-2013, 04:04 PM
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It has been said on other threads that it is possible to get too much zinc and phosphorus in the oil. That could explain your problem. Seems like I remember seeing that a normal load is around 1200 to 1600 parts per million (PPM).
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Old 09-30-2013, 05:13 PM
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Thanks guys for the input. I'm gonna pull the plugs soon and visual the valve guide seals. I ran a make shift PCV catch can for the last 2000 miles and have zero oil collected - so no problem there. Next will have to be a leakdown test. Was probably closer to 6 than 8 litres oil really , and I can't see any smoke whatsoever out the pipes when I gun it - at least not from the drivers seat. I'd have to have someone follow me for a true test.
I'll report back again soon after I pull the plugs.
Appreciate y'all's help,



Duke
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Old 09-30-2013, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
It has been said on other threads that it is possible to get too much zinc and phosphorus in the oil. That could explain your problem. Seems like I remember seeing that a normal load is around 1200 to 1600 parts per million (PPM).

Welcome back! That's what I'm thinking, the oil I'm using has full zinc and then I'm chucking in the 4 oz bottle - thinking that more is better
It does leak a vey little bit oil around the timing case/pan - it's a chev LOL
I was very particular when I fitted the intake. Block decked .010" , piston down in hole .005" ( not rebuilders) , .030" cometic head gasket = .035" quench. I blueprinted the victor jnr intake to the head and it lined up perfectly, just had to open the gasket up a bit in places at the ports on sportsman 2's. I didn't do it your way, which I think is better, and I would do next time, but I'm fairly confident that there is no valley to port oil travel.
The plugs should reveal something , I hope!
I'll post a pic of the plugs when they're out.



Duke
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Old 09-30-2013, 05:51 PM
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I'd look for detonation that is there or was there.
Detonation does not have to break a piston ring land outright to really screw up the pistons
and rings. it distorts teh piston ring lands and often causes ring end butting which scuffs the rings, and cylinders,, distorts the
ring and ring lands and wrecks the piston ring seal.

Your stated compression ratio is very high.
The trouble is engines do not self heal once damaged by detonation. One of the signs is high oil consumption.
A lighted bore scope inspection may show something. ( cylinder wall scuffing, discoloured valves, piston scarring). You may not have heard the detonation.
Valve guides and seals are suspect too. The colour of the valves in the head shows how the engine is running better than the
spark plug appearance.

I think you are getting carried away with the zinc additive too.
Zinc is a proven good anti wear additive but zinc just dumped in the oil as an additve in a can is questionable. It may not be giving a positive effect. At any rate you are flooding it with Zinc in a oil that already has lots of zinc in it.

Even the stuff I use to fortify off the shelf oil www.molyslip.com
I only use half the can per oil change.
1. I'm cheap. 2. A little goes a long way.
3. It has a 40 year history good track record of not screwing up engines. (I am very leary of oil additives)

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 09-30-2013 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 09-30-2013, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jokerZ71 View Post
That is excessive.Your using a liter of oil every 270 miles or so.You would think with comsumption that high,that if leaking,it should be easy to see.If burning that much,you would think it should be smoking.Possibly crushed valve seals would be my 1st ck,followed by the intake gasket.If that cks good'your rings may indeed did not not take a good seat.
That's what I thought, but I can't see any blue smoke when I rug it.
Going to check the seals soon - those mothers are real hard to see!


Duke
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Old 09-30-2013, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbogie View Post
Wow that's a lot of oil. SBC's can get it down the valve guides due to inadaquate valve stem sealing: pull it into the intake from a bad gasket seal between the heads and intake manifold, this is common on engines with decked blocks and milled especially angle milled heads, inducted through the crankcase venting system, or certainly past the rings.

Glazing is deposition of resins and particles in the oil that form a tough smooth film on the cylinder walls usually takes an overheated condition over a long time.

This sounds like a race engine that's street driven, this can be difficult for such enignes.

Bogie
Thanks bogie for your reply, your posts are always very comprehensive informative and easy on the eyes. I copy and paste much of your stuff for reference.
Not much milling went on. Heads are new. .010" of the deck - intake lined up real good. Even managed to use those cork gaskets at the valley ends ..LOL!

Race engine?? Well, sounds like one, drives like one and I treat it like one. Always clean the cobwebs out when legality permits. On the said trip, I was sitting on 60 to 80 mph for hours and hours on end (3000 to 4000rpm) and when stopping for fuel, the tailpipes were almost grey.
I'm glad I checked the oil when I did, had about 1/8" on the stick.



Duke
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Old 09-30-2013, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
You need to determine where the oil's going. I'd run a leakdown test on it. But if the engine is burning that much oil, the plugs will be a dead giveaway. Once you figure out where the loss is (intake gaskets, PCV system, rings, guides, leaking), you can go about fixing it.

Years ago there were reports of the dealerships and individuals using BonAmi through the carb to seat rings that didn't seat properly during the initial engine break in. I've even heard some say this actually worked, although I'd not recommend it. If the rings haven't seated, I would lightly rehone/break the glaze w/a flex hone and use a fresh set of moly rings.
Your the third one to mention the Ajax/BonAmi thing to me in a week!
Maybe there's some truth in that?
I'm going to pull the plugs as soon as I get off this keyboard , and hopefully they WILL tell the story!
Thanks



Duke
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Old 09-30-2013, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
I'd look for detonation that is there or was there.
Detonation does not have to break a piston ring land outright to really screw up the pistons
and rings. it distorts teh piston ring lands and often causes ring end butting which scuffs the rings, and cylinders,, distorts the
ring and ring lands and wrecks the piston ring seal.

Your stated compression ratio is very high.
The trouble is engines do not self heal once damaged by detonation. One of the signs is high oil consumption.
A lighted bore scope inspection may show something. ( cylinder wall scuffing, discoloured valves, piston scarring). You may not have heard the detonation.
Valve guides and seals are suspect too. The colour of the valves in the head shows how the engine is running better than the
spark plug appearance.

I think you are getting carried away with the zinc additive too.
Zinc is a proven good anti wear additive but zinc just dumped in the oil as an additve in a can is questionable. It may not be giving a positive effect. At any rate you are flooding it with Zinc in a oil that already has lots of zinc in it.

Even the stuff I use to fortify off the shelf oil Molyslip Canada Inc. :: Molybdenum Lubricants, Performance Lubricants, Copaslip Anti-Seize, EP2 Grease, Wear Reducing Lubricants, Oil Additive
I only use half the can per oil change.
1. I'm cheap. 2. A little goes a long way.
3. It has a 40 year history good track record of not screwing up engines. (I am very leary of oil additives)
Gee, now your scaring me! I THINK I have a very acute ear when it comes to detonation , I've had it before an I can usually detect it even when it is very very light. I know what is sounds like when it's severe too, must be close to one of the worst sounds I ever heard.

Yeah, I think I've over done the zinc. I have access to a scope, but it's a cheap **** one not worth a damn. I'll pull the plugs check the seals and go from there.
Thanks for your input.



Duke
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Old 09-30-2013, 06:38 PM
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Something I do know a bit about
Molyslip is in suspension not solution, it's generally better to just 'paint' it on parts when building motor as it ends up putting a real good coat on oil pan and filter when it 'drops out' of suspension
Optimum ZDDP levels seem to be around 1,800~2,000PPM, much more than that can attack bearings (I forget why but Google has the answers )
Majority of oils are 1200PPM, you should work out how much to add to get 1800

Did you oil pistons and rings during re-build?
I stopped oiling rings 25 yrs ago, all it does is prevent rings bedding in unless you have a real aggressive cross hatch on cylinder walls.
Better to oil bottom of cylinder and drop pistons in, the top rings will bed in withing a few seconds of start up and the oil ring will wipe the bore. There should be enough oil flung up the cylinders at 2,000 rpm so excess wear won't be an issue
Rings will eventually bed in but it can take up to 10,000 miles or more
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Old 09-30-2013, 07:46 PM
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Using some oil additives like STP before the engine is fully broken in will prevent rings from ever breaking in. Oil consumption is the result, and nothing short of tearing it down and honing will cure it.
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:00 PM
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Moly slip will not clog your oil filter.
Moly slip will not prevent your piston rings from breaking in.

What would you prefer? A little harmless grey **** sitting in the pan or
YOUR FRGGIN NEW CAMSHAFT LOBES SITTING IN THE PAN IN metal SHAVINGS !

Moly Slip E will not "coat" your oil pan.
The Moly in "moly rings" serves the same purpose.

i don't use STP butr this is false
Using some oil additives like STP before the engine is fully broken in will prevent rings from ever breaking in.
There may be a oil addtive that you can dump in that may effect ring break in, but not STP, GM EOS, MOLY SLIP or CRANE/COMP CAMS cam cam break in lube . and not Moly disulfide cam lobe break in paste. ( Isky Rev lube/Crane etc) ( goes on the camshaft lobes.

The most common cause of new engine oil filter and oil galley clogging is from RTV GASKET SEALER.
And yup this stuff will kill the rings.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 09-30-2013 at 08:14 PM.
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