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Old 09-08-2007, 01:01 AM
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gluing wood

Would liquid nails be better to glue wood together or gorilla glue for my center console that i am building

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Old 09-08-2007, 03:08 AM
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Niether. If you plan on hanging onto it for a while, take a walk to your local marine shop. There is a large range of excellent products available now and the boat boys have been glueing wood for generations. Unlike a house, a car moves and can vary greatly from hot and dry to cold and wet. The cost is usually not a lot more than your house building glues and should last a lot longer.
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Old 09-08-2007, 05:53 AM
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I use Titebond or TitebondII to glue wood with..that product makes very strong glued joints in woodworking..

Sam
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Old 09-08-2007, 06:53 AM
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Gorilla Glue would be a bad choice for use with the type of wood you'll be using in a console. Mainly because you have to wet the pieces being glued to activate Gorilla Glue, and that's a big no-no when you're talking about MDF or plywood. Plywood will warp or delaminate, and MDF will just melt.

Liquid nails would work if you already have that lying around, but it has a long curing time, so the console will have to be left alone to cure at least overnight before you can handle it - preferably 72 hours. Even then, it may or may not be fully cured. Liquid Nails is made more for something that's never going to move or be handled a lot.

As a former cabinetmaker, I'm with Sam on this one. I prefer Titebond myself, but Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue is a good substitute if you can't find it. If I remember right, you're going to be fiberglassing over this wood, right? If so, you won't have to worry about moisture problems when it comes to the glue joints. The 'glass will take care of that. And either Titebond or Elmer's remains flexible enough after it's cured to be able to handle any vibrations a street car will normally be subjected to. You can usually find Titebond at Home Depot or Lowe's for a lot less than any marine product.

No matter which adhesive you use, you should also use nails, brads, staples, or screws along with the glue to secure the pieces together wherever it's possible to do so.
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Old 09-08-2007, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty82
Gorilla Glue would be a bad choice for use with the type of wood you'll be using in a console. Mainly because you have to wet the pieces being glued to activate Gorilla Glue, and that's a big no-no when you're talking about MDF or plywood. Plywood will warp or delaminate, and MDF will just melt.
.
You do not saturate the wood, only a light misting is required, which is no where near enough to do any damage to the wood. In the R/C aircraft hobby field Polyurethane glue is used extensively to glue balsa wing skins to foam wing cores. The water misting on the balsa works very well and causes zero problems.

Polyurethane glue (Gorilla) is perfectly acceptable when building anything out of wood, it is one of the more superior adhesives. It is waterproof when cured. The foaming action fills any voids in the wood or poor fitting of the wood. All around I prefer it to either Weldwood ot Titebond, both of which I believe are not waterproof. In the old days of building R/C aircraft Titebond was one of the premier adhesives. If your plane lived long enough you would eventualy find the joints glued with water based glues drying out and turning loose. The advent of CA adhesives sounded the death knell for water based adhesives in the R/C hobby. Polyurethane glues have pretty much replaced epoxy as the preferred method of building balsa skinned foam wings, it is far easier to work with, less expensive and lighter than epoxy with the added benefit of being stronger.

Vince

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Old 09-09-2007, 12:06 AM
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I agree with Vince.
I've used gorilla glue on all of the wooden assemblies that were installed in the 34 coupes we used to build at Poli form. Been using it for over 8 years with no problems.

here is something I found on a google search.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...ane_glues.html


Later, mikey
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Old 09-09-2007, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302 Z28
You do not saturate the wood, only a light misting is required, which is no where near enough to do any damage to the wood. In the R/C aircraft hobby field Polyurethane glue is used extensively to glue balsa wing skins to foam wing cores. The water misting on the balsa works very well and causes zero problems.

Vince
Just about everything you said is true, Vince, but you're talking about solid balsa wood - not plywood or MDF (medium density fiberboard - basically a very strong, heavy, dense form of particle board.) Solid woods are a totally different matter, with totally different rules.

MDF will not tolerate water at all - the wood chips soak up the water and swell almost instantly, and the adhesive used to make it will dissolve, causing the piece to crumble or melt. Even a drop of sweat has to be wiped up quickly or a swollen spot will form within a minute. Do not even mist MDF with water - believe me when I say you'll have a real mess on your hands.

Plywood made with standard adhesives doesn't tolerate water well either - the exception being marine grade plywood, but that's relatively expensive stuff, and I don't think lukeep is using that. Exterior grade plywoods have a water-resistant adhesive, but aren't waterproof. Water even misted onto the edges of plywood will cause the wood fibers to absorb it quickly and swell. This breaks down the adhesive layer. If enough water gets into the adhesive layers of any kind of plywood, it will start to delaminate.

I guess I should have said that if you're using solid wood - not plywood or MDF - Gorilla Glue will work (I've never used Gorilla Glue on pine, fir, or any other softwoods, so I don't know how it'll react to the sap and other oils found in those softwoods.) Having said that, however, I would advise against using solid woods for making a console's substructure - except for minor bracing here and there. Even kiln-dried hardwoods will begin to degrade with changes in temperature and humidity that most cars go through, which results in warping and cracking. This is why 99% of the wood you see in automotive applications is a thin veneer and not a solid slab of wood - although there are always some exceptions. Softwoods like pine, fir, hemlock, and spruce are way too unstable to use as a substructure (even if kiln dried) and should be avoided at all costs. If you want a finished wood surface, apply a wood veneer to the fiberglass, metal, MDF, or plywood substrate.

Fiberglass consoles are usually made with a framework of either MDF or plywood because of their strength and stability, so I naturally figured that's what lukeep was going to use. If plywood or MDF is going to be used, I stand by my previous answer - either Titebond (or Titebond 2) or Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue. Titebond 2 is water/weather resistant, and is used all over for outdoor wood projects.
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Old 09-09-2007, 12:33 AM
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I've used gorilla glue or its equivilent to glue kiln dried fir to ac exterior plywood in the rear window assemblies and parcel trays that were installed in all of our 34 coupes. These are exposed to water on a regular basis, as the window slides up and down in the assembly, and water is able to get in through the weatherstrip. (it does get drained out via a stock rear window drip pan)

The design is a copy of the stocker.

I've had the opportunity to work on these cars, sometimes years after delivery, and have never seen any problems with the glue or choice of wood. Also if ever we had a failure of that part, I'd hear about it.

I wouldn't use MDF for a console...too heavy. I'd use polyurethane foam, shaping the console, then glass over it, then remove the foam...using a technique much the same as in my wiki article called "how to build a fiberglass fan shroud."

Later, mikey
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Old 09-09-2007, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerrodsmike
I wouldn't use MDF for a console...too heavy. I'd use polyurethane foam, shaping the console, then glass over it, then remove the foam...using a technique much the same as in my wiki article called "how to build a fiberglass fan shroud."

Later, mikey
That is the preferred method currently. I agree, MDF is far too heavy. The only place I would use MDF in a car is to build a sub woofer enclosure, there it's weight and density are a plus to the performance of the enclosure. I have been constructing my door panels and other interior panels from a laminate of 1/8" Luan and 1/4" ply. I use Polyurethane glue to do this exclusively and it works very well.

Vince
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Old 09-09-2007, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerrodsmike
I've used gorilla glue or its equivilent to glue kiln dried fir to ac exterior plywood in the rear window assemblies and parcel trays that were installed in all of our 34 coupes. These are exposed to water on a regular basis, as the window slides up and down in the assembly, and water is able to get in through the weatherstrip. (it does get drained out via a stock rear window drip pan)

Later, mikey

I stand corrected when it comes to ACX plywood then. I'm a bit confused though. The rear window on the 34 coupes you built opened and closed? It's a great idea, I just didn't know they did that. If I read this right, you used fir ACX plywood for the package shelf, and used Gorilla Glue to glue supports and braces to it? Were you gluing anything to the edges of the plywood? Were the edges of the plywood exposed to moisture without being sealed with fiberglass resin or something?

Have you seen any of the 34s you built 3 or 4 years down the road? I'm curious as to how the glue tolerated the sap and oils of the fir with age. Like I said, I've never used the two together, so I'd like to find out.

Please understand that when it comes to plywood delaminating, I'm referring to exposing the edges to water - not the flat veneer surface. The veneer surfaces on the top and bottom of any sheet of plywood are a lot more resistant to moisture. The majority of my experience is with FAS Cabinet grade plywood, which won't tolerate even short exposure to water on its edges. On the occasions that I've used ACX or CDX plywood, it was treated with even more care with regard to moisture because fir and hemlock are normally regarded as sponges when it comes to moisture absorption. Even spraying the edges of it with the vinyl sanding sealer we used caused the piece to swell slightly. Our painter hated working with the stuff because he had to spray seven or eight ultra-thin coats of sealer on it, rather than one or two normal coats, which bogged down the whole process. Once the sanding sealer was built up on the surface of the fir, we could sand and finish it as we would any other plywood. Getting it to that point, however, was a major pain.

As a side note - you guys must have one heck of a fire going down there near Morgan Hill, Mike. We've been getting the smoke from it for the last week! I didn't realize you were that close to me. We were down in Pleasanton over Labor Day weekend. If I had known, I'd have dropped you a note, and maybe we could have cruised down to Gilroy to meet up for coffee or something colder...

Edit: I just read your Wiki article. WOW! Excellent work! This opens up a whole new realm of possibilities to me when it comes to designing door panels, dashboards, and other trim panels. I've looked around, and there aren't any fiberglass suppliers near me. Do you have a favorite online source for that 2lb polyurethane foam? I'm going to check the local home improvement stores for the insulating foam board you mentioned, but getting the right stuff from the distributor is almost always less expensive than buying retail. Thanks for that excellent article!

Last edited by Dusty82; 09-09-2007 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 09-09-2007, 10:01 AM
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Last I heard,that fire burnt up over 27000 acres..
There are fire companies from all over the state here, what's strange is that there is no nighttime glow from the fire. Sorry to send our smoke towards you.

33-34 coupes had an optional roll down window that could be used with a rumble seat. It made communication with the rear seat occupants possible, or could be rolled up to cut off communication, depending on the occupant. (remember, they did call it a mother in law seat)


I started working for poli form in 85, and still am in contact with the company. I actually made the last 30 of those rear window assemblies, (RWA), in my shop, as a subcontractor. I have several current customers with cars that have the bodies I built while working there, so my continual monitoring of part deterioration is possible. I also still handle many of the tech calls that come from previous customers. (because no one else can remember all of those little details about all the assemblies like me..... )

So yes, I'd hear about it.

One car that gets driven alot in the rain, got a plastic liner on the RWA because we started to notice some staining on the wood.


We did no edge gluing, all of the gluing is done on the veneer surface. There were several parts of the assembly that were KDF glued to other KDF.The assemblies were glued and tacked with a finish nailer, more to act as a positioning aid than a method of fastening.

I'd build 10 at a time in an assembly fixture, then stack the whole run of them up and put them in my 55 ton press for an overnight clamping. Afterwards I'd take a grinder to the foamy excess that oozed out of the joint.

The 3/4" plywood parcel trays have 2 crescent shapes glued to the veneer at the outer edges , and are used as upholstery tack strips.

Those are tacked with a brad nailer as well, as a means of holding the part in place while the glue dries.

I'm sure that I'd want to see a sealer on these parts if they were to be used in wet environments constantly, but I have not seen any glue related failures . Maybe most folks aren't driving in the rain.

Once a long time ago we had a cabinet shop making those RWA's.. we had them stored in a loft and there was a roof leak..

THOSE assemblies fell apart, and the glue was all slimey when wet. I believe it was not a waterproof glue, and I am sure it was not a urethane.

I was at Pleasanton wearing my Hotrodders,com shirt, and I even posted about it before I went... see post # 6

Next year

Edit: Thanks for the compliment about that wiki, I am happy to share what I've learned while doing this professionally. I have made many consoles with that foam buck method, as well as complete bodies, fenders and parts for industrial applications.

You can use the polyurethane insulation sheets that you can get from the building supply centers. Peel off the foil and go to town. Don't use styrofoam, unless you are going over it with epoxy or can isolate it from the resin. The styrene in a polyester resin will dissolve styrofoam..
Later, mikey
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Old 09-09-2007, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty82
Do you have a favorite online source for that 2lb polyurethane foam? I'm going to check the local home improvement stores for the insulating foam board you mentioned, but getting the right stuff from the distributor is almost always less expensive than buying retail.

You can do a search here on the site for fiberglass materials sources, I know that aircraft spruce is one. I am spoiled as there is a Revchem warehouse within walking distance of my shop, and fiberglass hawaii of santa cruz (the strange business names that are created by surfers) is about 45 minutes away..

Between those two companies, (who will ship direct to you as well), I have never needed to look anywhere else.

later, mikey
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Old 09-09-2007, 12:39 PM
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Just about all the aircraft homebuilders supply houses sell urethane foam blocks. Wicks Aircraft Supply, and Aircraft Spruce are but two. The thing that will get you is the shipping because of the bulk size of the foam. I found a source of a blue poly foam at a place that does industrial pipe insulating. It is manufactered by Dow Chemical and goes by the brand name Trymer.
They have these foam blocks in 6" thick sections. I purchased a scrap piece that is 6" thick and about 4 feet square for $10. It carves very easily and sands like a dream. You can actually form your shape with either a Sureform tool or 80 grit sand paper. It is impervious to polyester resin. Once your shape is derived you can use contact adhesive to hold your mat or cloth onto the form as you apply the resin.

Vince
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