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-   -   Going from 700R4 to Muncie 4-speed '31 Coupe (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/going-700r4-muncie-4-speed-31-coupe-225965.html)

31ROC 11-11-2012 07:13 AM

Going from 700R4 to Muncie 4-speed '31 Coupe
 
I am considering for the winter project, to remove the current 700R4 auto tranny, and install a 4-speed Muncie (M21 or M22?). The car is a '31 Model A coupe, with '32 frame, and Ford 9" rearend, Chevy 350 motor. Are there suggestions out there what kind of 4-speed may fit better, and are there "kits" for installing a 4 speed into this car? I assume finding a pedal assembly may be a task in itself?
Thanks in advance....

cobalt327 11-11-2012 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 31ROC (Post 1609842)
I am considering for the winter project, to remove the current 700R4 auto tranny, and install a 4-speed Muncie (M21 or M22?). The car is a '31 Model A coupe, with '32 frame, and Ford 9" rearend, Chevy 350 motor. Are there suggestions out there what kind of 4-speed may fit better, and are there "kits" for installing a 4 speed into this car? I assume finding a pedal assembly may be a task in itself?
Thanks in advance....

The wide ratio M20 might make a better swap than the close ratio M21/22 unless you have a 4-something rear gear in it now. If that's the case (low rear gears) you might consider a manual w/OD.

You might find using a hydraulic throw out bearing makes things easier than running a cable or linkage. There are kits for them that include the pedal assembly.

Hopefully Auto Gear will see this and comment.

Good luck.

AutoGear 11-12-2012 07:20 AM

Present and accounted for.

There is no kit that I know of for a Model A on deuce rails. Welcome to hotrodding. A hydraulic assembly will certainly help matters; do your research though as some of the street rod pieces seem to be leak prone.

Some of the guy's who were around in the 60s may remember the Ansen swing pedal assemblies. This is a 'box that has 2 pedals in it (brake and clutch) with their respective reservoirs (I believe). This would certainly simplify things.

With regards to the muncie itself; If you want an M21/M22 you'll need at least a 3.73 rear gear. With the typical tall rear tire on a coupe, you'd really want a 4.11. You can run an M20 with a 3.42/3.55/3.73 or the 4.11 and be happy.

There are aftermarket gearsets that have special ratios for the Muncie. One company makes a version of the M20 ratio on the M22 platform. They're offshore gears. The higher than OEM quality gears are made in italy by 'Masiero' which is now 'Euroricambi'. They're approx twice the price, but if you're running it hard, I highly recommend it. Whatever you get, make sure that the countershaft hole at the front is in good shape; no pinpricks around it, no silicone, no leaks. It'd be better if you could get your hands on the 1" countershaft unit.

Regarding other transmissions: if its just a cruiser, a modified T5 would be great (they're usually 12-1500 from the guys who build them); you could also go with a New Process 833 OD. This was a 4speed overdrive sideshifted GM version of the venerable Mopar 833. It was used in pick up trucks in the late 80s I believe. Its a heavy ****; but it has the benefit of being approximately Muncie sized, has the mild OD and its a 4 speed. A TKO is going to be tough to fit I think.

If you get serious about this, I have a customer who is putting one of our 4 speeds in his 60's style 3w coupe (proprietary 2.98 1st gear with a 3.55 rear gear I think). I can touch base and see how he feels about jumping in here or e-mailing you.

31ROC 11-15-2012 12:57 PM

Thanks for the input guys....maybe the T5 or the M20 IS the way to go, but I am having some reservations now as my intent is to also tub this car and found out it could cost $5000? to do this?:confused:
I did not realize the frame had to be cut and altered, along with the rear end....(also heard there is a "kit" for doing this?) I guess the $$$ account will have to grow a bit first....

406 bug 11-15-2012 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 31ROC (Post 1609842)
I am considering for the winter project, to remove the current 700R4 auto tranny, and install a 4-speed Muncie (M21 or M22?). The car is a '31 Model A coupe, with '32 frame, and Ford 9" rearend, Chevy 350 motor. Are there suggestions out there what kind of 4-speed may fit better, and are there "kits" for installing a 4 speed into this car? I assume finding a pedal assembly may be a task in itself?
Thanks in advance....

None of my business but why make the change? Sounds like you have a great combo as is.

31ROC 11-16-2012 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 406 bug (Post 1611796)
None of my business but why make the change? Sounds like you have a great combo as is.

It is a good combo, just not my cup of tea....to me a 4 -speed is meant for hot rods...

31ROC 11-24-2012 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobalt327 (Post 1609871)
The wide ratio M20 might make a better swap than the close ratio M21/22 unless you have a 4-something rear gear in it now. If that's the case (low rear gears) you might consider a manual w/OD.

You might find using a hydraulic throw out bearing makes things easier than running a cable or linkage. There are kits for them that include the pedal assembly.

Hopefully Auto Gear will see this and comment.

Good luck.

So, doing a search for M20...and most ads are saying their M20 should fit 67-70's Chevrolet.....if I have a mid to late 70's 350, will this tranny fit?

31ROC 11-24-2012 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 31ROC (Post 1615352)
So, doing a search for M20...and most ads are saying their M20 should fit 67-70's Chevrolet.....if I have a mid to late 70's 350, will this tranny fit?

Also.....will the M20 have the correct spline counts input and output?

cobalt327 11-24-2012 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 31ROC (Post 1615364)
So, doing a search for M20...and most ads are saying their M20 should fit 67-70's Chevrolet.....if I have a mid to late 70's 350, will this tranny fit?

Also.....will the M20 have the correct spline counts input and output?

The tranny mates to the bellhousing and yes, the same bellhousing that fits the earlier blocks will fit your block. Put another way, any M20 will work, but it takes a bellhousing to connect the tranny and engine together.

The M20 can come from any GM vehicle, mine is from a Pontiac for example. So don't pass one up just because it doesn't say it's for a Chevy.

The input splines will determine the clutch you use, so there's no problem there. Older trannys (1962-'70) used the 10 spline input, newer trannys (1970-'74) used a 26 spline input. But you can get a clutch for either spline that will work for you. It's the output shaft spline count that can mean a different drive shaft yoke is needed or not.

The earlier M20 output shaft has 27 splines- the same spline as the tranny you have now. Or it can have a 32 spline output, this was used on the newer trannys.

You will need to install a pilot bushing in the crankshaft, this is what locates and supports the end of the input shaft.

31ROC 11-25-2012 04:28 AM

EXCELLENT information, much appreciated! Thanks:thumbup:

31ROC 11-25-2012 02:33 PM

Also been looking at pedal assemblies...doesnt look like there's much room under the floor, and I dont want the master cyclinders (clutch&brake) outside on the firewall....hanging down from under the dash is an option, but it appears the all-in-one units have the pedals too close together to put clutch on left of steering column and brake on the right?
Anyone out there have a solution for this?

cobalt327 11-25-2012 02:49 PM

What about using a reverse mount pedal assembly that puts the MC under the dash, or is that what you're talking about above? You can get these separately so they can be mounted where ever.

31ROC 11-25-2012 03:00 PM

yes...that is what I meant...but I am not smart enough to think of buying them seperate to fit them where I need!!!! I need to see where these can get mounted under there....I assume they must get mounted to something other than the firewall which will flex...
Great idea!!! The search begins....

vinniekq2 11-26-2012 05:52 AM

you are losing the over drive with a 4 speed.If the car is worth the conversion,look into a t-56. pedal assemblies can be purchased as a kit.The transmission needs extra room over a muncie

V8&4spd 11-26-2012 09:51 AM

Muncies are easy to find. Just look at the input shaft, you want a 10 spline and the output shaft will use the same yoke as Turbo 350. A T10 will also work. Depending on what year your 350 is, there is a lite weight flywheel that works on the one piece seal engines. It weighs half of what a normal flywheel weighs. You can shave some weight off with the right combination of parts.


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